The Wheel of Time series...

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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby randomperson » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:30 am

Wow, really? That's incredibly stupid.

The Asmodean killer is actually only in the glossary (stupid way to reveal it, I know) but I didn't know there were any other spoilers in there.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:05 am

Wait really? its only in the glossary? There are 860 pages in the book and I pick out the one line that spoils the longest running mystery in the book in under 30 seconds? That... that takes some skill I guess.

The same glossary entry also has heavy spoilers dealing with Aran'gar, which admittedly are dealt with in the prologue, and some slightly more vague spoilers dealing with Mesaana that haven't come up yet. (and goddammit, got another spoiler just trying to google how to spell her name)

On the up side, Rand has become so awesome so quickly, he's on pace out awesome Mat any chapter now. Speaking of which, I think Sanderson realizes how much of a fan favorite Mat is and purposefully holds back on having him in the story as long as possible just to tease everyone. Did the same thing last book, every other character it seems we at least check in on them at some point early on.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sling » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:19 am

Has anybody else found Egwene to be a really annoying bitch? It was kinda badass how she stood up to Elaida, but for some reason she just royally pisses me off. For me, Egwene was infinitely more badass when she was leading the rebel Aes Sedai back in the camp. Now that she is actually Amyrlin, I have found that she is just an uppity damp squib. I was so relieved at how badass Rand was when he turned up at the White Tower, and at how much he unnerved Egwene.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby randomperson » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:02 am

Lots of people have been saying they didn't like Egwene this book, I'm not really sure why since I thought she did some pretty awesome stuff here. Like I said she reached her peak at TGS and she's not going to ever reach that level of coolness again.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sling » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:13 pm

randomperson wrote:Lots of people have been saying they didn't like Egwene this book, I'm not really sure why since I thought she did some pretty awesome stuff here. Like I said she reached her peak at TGS and she's not going to ever reach that level of coolness again.

I have not read the entire book yet. I read a few chapters, and then I got sidetracked reading The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and the Blackwell Philosophy and Contemporary Culture book series. I have books I bought years ago that I still have yet to read. I have just ordered The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins, which should be a good read.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:27 am

Egwene is only been in about 2 chapters I've read so far and, yeah, I can tell why she may not be liked this book, but it all makes sense and is understandable and in character so what can you expect. Thats one of the main themes of the series, characters coming to the best decision they can based off what they know, which only the reader knows is a very bad one. Or hey, maybe she'll be right and new-rand wont turn out to be so perfect. I'm only like 10 chapters in so far.

Also as far as the asmodean killer not being mentioned in the book it self, I just got to a part where there's a hint about it, and well, while its no means concrete, for this particular mystery a subtle hint is about the equivalent of screaming it from a rooftop.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Forerunner » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:48 am

Sling wrote:Has anybody else found Egwene to be a really annoying bitch? It was kinda badass how she stood up to Elaida, but for some reason she just royally pisses me off. For me, Egwene was infinitely more badass when she was leading the rebel Aes Sedai back in the camp. Now that she is actually Amyrlin, I have found that she is just an uppity damp squib. I was so relieved at how badass Rand was when he turned up at the White Tower, and at how much he unnerved Egwene.



hahaha I thought the same thing, but was more than willing to ignore it under the assumption that it was mostly caused by Egwene being female and me being male. However I've recently coerced my girlfriend into starting the series, and she hated Egwene right off the bat. Apparently she is, and I quote "a power-hungry, stuck-up bitch who does nothing for any reason except personal gain. She goes on about understanding Rand, but she just treats him like shit, berates him for everything and tells him he needs to step down a peg, not like he's the Dragon Reborn and has to sacrifice himself to save the world or anything."

This has caused me to rethink my position on her. I thought she got more tolerable in the later books. Now I think: she was always a bossy bitch who thought she was better than everyone else, now she finally has the Seat to back it up.




Also, missed the answer to Asmo's death, will have to go back and read that.
Last edited by Forerunner on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:51 pm

Just finished it, easily one of my favorites in the series. Also very glad to see Sanderson figured out how to write Mat, after how strange he came off in TGS. I still think Egwene is completely understandable in this book, even if she's acting as Rand's unwitting pawn. If you hate her take some solace in that.

Now Elyane on the other hand, I fucking hate her. I don't think I've really noticed how much I hate her until this book. And its not just this book, looking back, I've always hated her and just haven't noticed.

Avienda's small plotline was completely unexpected but amazing. It probably wins for the most completly unexpected plot twist in the series. Well, maybe not plot twist exactly but you get my point.

And after Moridin hints at Asmodean's killer in the beggining of the book, Shader Haran almost spells it out at the end, so I get why its in the glossary, though I wish it wasn't still. Also looked through the rest of the glossary, and none of the rest of it seems to have spoilers for the book, just that one entry.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Forerunner » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:29 am

Sage Of The Wise wrote:Avienda's small plotline was completely unexpected but amazing. It probably wins for the most completly unexpected plot twist in the series. Well, maybe not plot twist exactly but you get my point.



I really didn't know what to make of that. It gives the Aiel a purpose again... but what? If Avienda takes actions to fix the 'history' of the Aiel, will that change the visions that appear to the next person? I assume it would be like the columns original restrictions (it follows bloodlines), but still, I just have a lot of trouble comprehending the kind of consequences that will have on the world of WoT without reading the next book.

Elayne never really bothered me though. She's an airhead in some ways, but politically badass. Rand fucked her because she's pretty? And she fucked him because of.... love at first sight? Fate? She has a lot of influence, but on a personal level she doesn't really amount to most of the other characters. Or at least I guess that's the way I feel.

And I'd actually have to disagree about Mat. The way Sanderson writes really annoys me when it comes to Mat and to a lesser degree Perrin. He seems to exaggerate Mat and Perrin's character traits in ways that make me wince for RJ's sake. Mat was always a bit of a fool, and took the piss out of people a little. But he was sensible and reasonable. Now he still has all the correct judgement behind him, but he acts a little like a tool just because he can, especially when it comes to women, and he didn't seem like that before.

Completely predictable, I know, but Rand showing up at Maradon was the coolest part of the book. And Bandar Eban, and the orchard right at the start. I'm repeating myself, but he kicks so much ass right now. Bit right at the end with Lanfear gets me though. What next?!?! Only one book left.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:58 pm

I really didn't know what to make of that. It gives the Aiel a purpose again... but what? If Avienda takes actions to fix the 'history' of the Aiel, will that change the visions that appear to the next person? I assume it would be like the columns original restrictions (it follows bloodlines), but still, I just have a lot of trouble comprehending the kind of consequences that will have on the world of WoT without reading the next book.

Thats what I like, it was so completly unexpected and important yet I have no idea what its going to mean.

With Elyane... it was really that 'I'm invincible' thing she had going on that was so stupid and how she refused to consider the fact she might be wrong, and I'm thinking, atleast we know she's going to get her ass handed to her because of the karmatic power of storytelling and I'll get to enjoy that. But then that plotline concludes with her really doing more harm to Mat (which he doesn't even know) than too herself.

My favorite part of the book was the Tower of Genjei sequence, especially the second half where they have to escape. Though a close second is every single scene Rand is in, since he's just that awesome. My only problem with his scenes is that we never get one from his point of view all book, but I'm sure that was very intentional. Ok well the Lanfear scene was from his point of view out of necessity but that was hardly introspective. What the hell was that Lanfear scene about anyway? I guess it has to do with his link with Moridin, but it just creeped me out.

Also jesus christ the black tower scenes were some of the creepiest and most unnerving scenes I've read in a long time. Same with the red veiled Aiel. I'm guessing those are the Aiel male channelers sent to the blight to die. If not I have no idea.

On a lighter note Lan stumbled into a comedy in this book and seemed to be the only one not in on the joke, which was surprisingly awesome.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Forerunner » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:46 am

Sage Of The Wise wrote:Also jesus christ the black tower scenes were some of the creepiest and most unnerving scenes I've read in a long time. Same with the red veiled Aiel. I'm guessing those are the Aiel male channelers sent to the blight to die. If not I have no idea.

On a lighter note Lan stumbled into a comedy in this book and seemed to be the only one not in on the joke, which was surprisingly awesome.


All true, although I was guessing at people from Shara. At one point someone (probably Graendal now that I think about it), had figured out where all the other Forsaken and their power bases were (discounting the enslaved/deceased ones) except for Demandred. Everything points at the Black Tower, except the fact that Taim is definitely not Demandred, but 2 other places I've been considering is a fortress in the blight like the one Moridin was in, or Shara.
We've been told that Shara definitely exists, that they're obscured somewhere beyond the wastes, and that they're a bunch of suss bastards. I'm just guessing that if RJ really had no purpose for them he would have let mention of them fade out of the series by now or something, but I think the Sharan's could be Demandreds invisible army.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby randomperson » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:14 am

Personally I think Demandred's got something to do with the Black Tower. The red-veiled Aiel are the Aiel male channelers and the red sailed ships in Chapter 1 are the Sea Folk channelers that get deposited on that island or whatever (not so sure about the latter but I like the idea).

I don't think Shara's going to have much significance to anything actually, I think the stuff in the guidebook is the most information we'll get on them. I can't see them suddenly becoming relevant in the last book. Also RJ did say he planned to leave a lot of stuff unresolved so people could speculate on it after it was done (oh boy it's The Way all over again).

The Aiel thing is crazy, who do you guys think Nakomi is? I've heard theories that it's Verin, but I'm not sure about the timing for that. I thought it was weird how Aviendha wasn't at all suspicious of her despite how weirdly she was acting, didn't seem like Aviendha at all.

Lanfear at the end...I thought it was odd that Rand seemed to care for 'Mierin' considering that IIRC Lews Therin said he never loved her. I'm sure it's a trap of some sort, I don't buy Lanfear going over to the Light under any circumstances.

The Aes Sedai at the Black Tower are being 13/13'd, no doubt about it.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:41 pm

Yeah I don't see Shara becoming important, at least not 'secret location of Demandred' important. Speaking of which, I've always found that a much more compelling mystery than Who Killed Asmodean. For them to just say he was on the other side of the world is rather anticlimatic. I would assume he's either in the Black Tower or with the Borderland army. And from what I remember of TGS, the clues there support all three theories.

As for the Nakomi thing, I thought Avienda was suspicious during the entire thing, she just got to roped up in her own customs to really do anything else. Do the timelines work out for her to be Verin? I really need some timeline guide for TGS and TOM. I spent half the book thinking I was going insane every time Tam showed up in both Rand and Perrin's plot lines at seemingly the same time, until they finally made it obvious Perrin's story happens way before the rest. If it was Verin though, what purpose would it have served? Also you can't have Verin without her trademark sealed letters of manipulation, which it seemed half the characters in the book were carrying around.

No idea what Lanfear's thing was, but I'm going with manipulation. For what I have no idea. But a 'Lanfear was really good on the inside' revelation just seems silly.

Also agree on the 13x13, pretty clear there. Which just makes it even creepier.

I don't have the book on me right now, what were the red ships in chapter one? And what sea folk channelers? That the Isle of Madmen or whatever its called?
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sling » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:33 am

My understanding of Elayne is that she is just Rand's annoying but hawt fuck buddy who just happens to be the heir to the Andorian and Cairhienin thrones. She is nowhere near as an annoying bitch as Egwene. No one is. If I could reach into the book and punch Egwene in the face, I would.

Is it just me but is Gawyn really fucking annoying too? I like how badass he has become in becoming this great military leader type guy, but he also comes off as just this hate-filled douche who hates Rand for, well, being Rand. Like how he doesn't even consider that Rand didn't kill Morgase, but automatically believes that he did it.

Perrin and Mat are still good characters. Perrin is only slightly annoying, in that he seems to be so pussy-footed about killing bad guys just becuase he don't want to give in to his "inner wolf." I think it would have been better if that had just cut out that horse shit altogether or maybve just only included it subtely from time to time instead of just slapping us in the face with it. Yes, Perrin is one of these wolf guys. He is afraid of going nuts like some of them have been known to do. We know, we get that, but why the fuck did he have to become so emotional about it? Like, how every time he considers fighting and combat he is like: "OMG, WE CAN'T KILL PEOPLE?!" I understand that he has been haunted and harrowed by incidents where things went over the top, but come on dude, get a fucking grip.

Mat doesn't annoy me at all, at least not that I can remember. The bit where he fought the gholam was badass. One of the reasons why I especially want to see WoT made into a films is so we can see something that blows the shit in Harry Potter so far out of the water that they end up in orbit around the earth. Sure, LOTR had some cooler enemies in it, but the shit in WoT is so mind blowingly awesome that words can't accurately describe them... well, unless your name happens to be Robert Jordan or Brandon Sanderson. I can just imagine HP fans literally shitting themselves at some of the enemies in WoT. Unless they deliberately dumb them down to make them more "family friendly" in which case I will gladly punch each and every person involved in said decision in the face.
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Re: The Wheel of Time series...

Postby Sling » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:06 am

I finished the book the other day. All I can say, bring on the last book. Egwene, Elayne and Gawyn actually became less annoying for me at the end. Oh they still royally piss me off with how haughty they act although Gawyn actually no longer hands Rand for no reason, and, whilst still a bit of an annoying twat in some respects, has ultimately redeemed himself as a character in my eyes. Egwene is still annoying, as is Elayne to some extent. It pissed me off how she kept referring to Perrin as a rebellious traitor. It truly is amazing how someone can give so much of a shit about a piece of land they don't give a fuck about, not even the Medieval kings of Europe were that petty. The side plot with Avienda was awesome, I mean, if I am not mistaken, the visions of the future show the future generations developing guns and other more modern equipment, although I was royally pissed off that the Aiel had somehow been defeated by the Seanchan. I really hope that the last book actually talks a bit about events after the last battle, and war between the Aiel and Seanchan can be averted. I would also like to see the Shara make an appearance in the last book, but that is just me.

I'm currently reading The First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever, which is really awesome fantasy series on par with WoT and LOTR. It is also really dark in that the main character doesn't really give that much of a shit about anything (he thinks he is hallucination, hence the title Unbeliever) and rapes a teenager in the first book when he discover he is no longer impotent. They are quite graphic too, in that the depictions of combat don't sugar coat anything. I'm on the second book atm. There are also two sequel trilogies, The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever and the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. The last book of the last trilogy is going to be out in 2013 I think. I still need to get the latest book that came out last year.
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