Three The Hard Way...

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Three The Hard Way...

Postby randomperson » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:53 am

Does anyone know of a place where I can find a list of all the optional stuff/sidequests in TTHW? I've played it through about five times or so but there still seems to be a ridiculous amount of things I haven't seen. I'd really like to know where all the optional scenes/dungeons are and when they can be accessed so that I can see everything the game has to offer.

I ask here because there doesn't seem to be any TTHW forum, and because I remember a 25-page or so topic discussing TTHW here a while back.

If such a thing doesn't exist, a list of all the Kaibutsu lords' locations, at least, would be appreciated.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:24 am

As far as I know, no such guide exists, but I've played through the game... 15? times with the explicit goal of finding every branch/optional/hidden thing. I'm pretty sure I've found just about everything (Strayed can attest to my ability to crawl every single line of code in a game), and I've actually spoken with iiShenron (the creator) at length about the game, and he seemed to think I found everything. And since I'm bored enough, I can probably put together a pretty thorough list given sufficient time. I don't have the ability to play the game this very second, so I can't check around for all the triggers/paths/hidden stuff right now, but I do remember the Kaibutsu lords fairly well.

This is off the top of my head, so I can't remember/spell the name of all the locations right. Though if you want to know where all the location names come from, just look at a map of South Carolina/Virginia.

Spoilers, I guess. Also take note the Kaibutsu war automatically ends after you kill 4 lords, with one exception.

Catawba The Ideologue - Tharsele Shrine, south of Durham. You need Tatum in your party.

Orrum The Ravager - Estill in the west of Dillon duchy, past the checkpoint. No specific requirements.

Clio The Maledictator - Tower on the island of Ravenel. This is added to your list of ship locations after one of a few different triggers. The two I can think of off the top of my head are at Tharsele shrine, and landing at Campobello in Dillon.

Manteo The Trickster - Newton grove, at the end of Pittsboro desert. No specific requirements, though I suggest you visit the desert casino first...

Elko The Perjuer - Ehrhardt, a town past a forest in Duke Winston's duchy (land at Mayodan and go south). You'll have to solve a puzzle and fight a boss to get through the forest, otherwise there are no specific requirments as far as I can recall.

Ramseur The Stratifier - The Ruins of Kure. Go to where you found the Kibou sword in the Lumbee forest. No specific requirements.

Teachy The Dischordian - Cumberland Mountains, northeast of Halifax. You have to have done the Cumberlands sidequest early in Act 1 to be able to do this one. Once the war starts go back to Halifax and exit east, and you should be able to start a long series of events that'll let you up the mountain. Note that finishing this scenario will automatically end the Kaibutsu War and move to the next phase.

Once again, I can't recall any specific details, but here are the big nonlinearities of the game:

-The Cumberlands sidequest in Act 1. I can't recall the exact timing of this, but it's before you cross the bridge to go to Darlington. I'm pretty sure it's available right after you do the defend the farm bounty, and it closes up quickly after. Just keep trying the guards at the Cumberland checkpoint after every little thing you do.

-Doing the bounty hunter jobs in Act 2. You can either do them with Fayette (and sometimes Whittaker and Gastonia) early on, or with Anderson when you're gather money for Fayette's cure.

-One of those jobs is to get the Olar amulet, which is a long sidequest that can only be done with Fayette.

-The fighting arena and crime boss sidequests in Orangeburg (I think it's burg). The crime boss sidequest in particular can be kind of confusing to trigger, so I'd have to research that a little further.

-Going to the ball in Durham city.

-How you get to Duke Greene (and who kills him) is one of the most labyrinthine and complicated nonlinearities in the game. I think there's either three or four different ways for it to play out, but two of the more major ways involve taking a boat and crashing on Severn island, which is a very long, but interesting way with some interesting plot developments, as well as unlocking a new party member. Or there's going to Duke Greene's villa first, where you can tussle with Benson and Mauldin, and get your items back that they stole earlier. Each of these ways has an effect on who actually kills Duke Greene, with one particularly surprising outcome.

-The entire Kaibutsu war, obviously. With the choice to kill any 4 lords, or end the war prematurely, there are gazillions of subtle versions of the cutscene with the remaining lords discussing their plans. For the most fun, end it with Teachy and leave Manteo alive. Leaving Catawba alive also has a noticeable effect. In any event, I suggest killing three and then going for Teachy, since his cutscene is probably the most interesting plot development in the entire game.

-There's a small scenario where you get stranded on an island while sailing in Act 3 during the Kaibutsu lords. I THINK it happens when you leave Ravenel Island after killing Clio.

-Having Roeper with you if you go to fight Orrum.

-When you fight Catawba has a major effect on a character.

-The desert casino in Act 3 produces one of the funniest scenes in the entire game presuming Manteo is still alive.

-The Kiawah island in the northwest-ish of Duke Winston's duchy (west of Mayodan).

-There's another sidequest involving the towns southeast-ish (Hildebrand) of Mayodan. All I remember is Saltfish Stew. Yep.

-Going to the lighthouse to fight Benson and Mauldin near the end of the game is entirely optional.

-Probably one of the most obscure and interesting lines comes from using Kanna's landrum spell on Teachy.

-The Holunca sidequest in Campobello.

-Fairmont Tower

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but keep in mind there are hundreds and hundreds of small dialog variations based on what sidequests you've done, which routes you've taken, choices you've made, characters you have with you, and which Kaibutsu lords you've killed. It's impossible to keep track of it all. The ending's the same no matter what, but I think having so many branches ensures each player has a different experience, and you play the game over and over again.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:24 pm

Wow, thats pretty comprehensive. Some other things that come to mind:

Collecting the Rune Tablet Fragments throughout the game. Theres enough out there for 2 sets I think, though you have to make sure to get your stolen stuff back from Benson and Mauldin to get all of them.

There's another collection type sidequest where you have to get all the pages to some ultra powerful Grimorum, never completed that one.

Then there's chasing Biggs all around the world. I remember he starts out at the Durham inn, not sure what part of the story triggers that though.

There's Selma Castle, which is just one big red herring. Whenever your doing some kind of search quest you can go there and activate some cutscene that will make it look like who ever you are looking for is hiding there, but they never are. Its worth going in once though for some chests.

I wanna say Fairfax Forest is an optional area. Jera probably remembers

Damn, I want to play this game again now. Maybe this time I can make sense out of the whole Marion/Ramseur thing. What ever happened to The Queen's Court and The Sojourners?
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Sage Of The Wise wrote:There's Selma Castle, which is just one big red herring. Whenever your doing some kind of search quest you can go there and activate some cutscene that will make it look like who ever you are looking for is hiding there, but they never are. Its worth going in once though for some chests.

I think it's actually mandatory both in Act 1, and later on with North and Clifton.

Sage Of The Wise wrote:I wanna say Fairfax Forest is an optional area. Jera probably remembers

It's optional, but I can't remember what it actually effects.

Sage Of The Wise wrote:What ever happened to The Queen's Court and The Sojourners?

iiShenron still infrequently updates his site. No word recently on The Queen's Court.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:36 pm

I think it's actually mandatory both in Act 1, and later on with North and Clifton.

You can go there when looking for the Dillion soldiers in act 1, and you can go there with North and Clifton while looking for Orrum, but I don't think its ever required.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:13 am

Sage Of The Wise wrote:
I think it's actually mandatory both in Act 1, and later on with North and Clifton.

You can go there when looking for the Dillion soldiers in act 1, and you can go there with North and Clifton while looking for Orrum, but I don't think its ever required.

Looking at it, it does increase a story counter when you're searching for the soldiers so I think it's mandatory there. Still could be optional, easily tested. It doesn't do anything when searching for Orrum, which is a part I always got lost at and couldn't figure out all the triggers to advance.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby randomperson » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:10 am

Wow, Jeramyu, I'm amazed how much you know about this game. I never knew how deep it was...Someone should totally write an FAQ for it like the one for The Way, though it'd be a ton of work.

Whoa, I never knew that sidequest involving the mountain was how to find Teachey...I tried to get up there once but it just kept on cycling through the same maps and I couldn't figure out how to get to the top, so I just quit. How do you get up there?

I also remember getting to Ramseur once, but every time I've tried since then, I've never been able to figure out how to get through the temple ruins...if you have directions for that part, that would be really useful.

How do you get this "Lamdur" spell for Kanna? Actually, how do you get ANY skills for her? I remember having a few, but have no idea how I got them. >_> She's completely useless without them, what with her 1-use and ridiculously hard-to-create magic items, and her MP-expending and horribly weak attack. In fact, a list of hidden spells/weapons/etc for everyone would be really useful, since there's a ton of great skills/equips I remember having on one playthrough but never finding afterwards. In particular, an amazing weapon for Anderson that had a wind animation and hit all enemies...I had it on my first play, but never since. Sorry if I'm asking too much there, but if so, just knowing where that weapon is would be great. Had some weird name starting with Z, I believe, though I'm not sure.

About the jobs in Act 2...wow, never knew you could play through them with Anderson. Apart from the Olar amulet one, can you play every single job with him? If so, I guess that would be the best choice, since if you do them with Fayette, Belson/Mauldin steal all the rewards from them anyway.

By the way...is any character apart from Vance, Clifton, North, Anderson and Fayette useful? It seems to me that most offensive skills suck, so the only useful characters are ones with strong regular attacks or, in Fayette's case, good healing spells. I'd like to try using people like Tatum, Kanna and Holly for once, but they seem so completely useless. Are the characters just unbalanced, or is there some trick to these characters that I haven't found yet?

This really is a great game...I can't wait to play through it again ^_^ I'm still amazed at the amount of non-linearity.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:19 pm

Well, Kanna can absolutly destroy some bosses with the right spells (she can solo the final boss in like 2 turns) but its getting the spells that takes awhile.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:28 pm

randomperson wrote:Wow, Jeramyu, I'm amazed how much you know about this game. I never knew how deep it was...Someone should totally write an FAQ for it like the one for The Way, though it'd be a ton of work.

A LOT of work, one of the two major reasons I couldn't do it alone.

randomperson wrote:Whoa, I never knew that sidequest involving the mountain was how to find Teachey...I tried to get up there once but it just kept on cycling through the same maps and I couldn't figure out how to get to the top, so I just quit. How do you get up there?

I usually just get lucky with trying exits. I can look up the exact solution in a bit...

randomperson wrote:I also remember getting to Ramseur once, but every time I've tried since then, I've never been able to figure out how to get through the temple ruins...if you have directions for that part, that would be really useful.

Again, I'd have to look it up, since I did it such a long time ago. The 3rd or 4th time playing through I just played the game through the editor and cheated past most of the dungeons. Solve 'em once, I think that's good enough. They're certainly enjoyable the first couple times around, but when you're dialogue hunting, they just get in the way. Has ANYONE been able to do that dial turning puzzle with Manteo in the Thought Realm? I can never ever get it. Same with the tug-o-war with the Golem on Severn island.

randomperson wrote:How do you get this "Lamdur" spell for Kanna? Actually, how do you get ANY skills for her? I remember having a few, but have no idea how I got them. >_> She's completely useless without them, what with her 1-use and ridiculously hard-to-create magic items, and her MP-expending and horribly weak attack. In fact, a list of hidden spells/weapons/etc for everyone would be really useful, since there's a ton of great skills/equips I remember having on one playthrough but never finding afterwards. In particular, an amazing weapon for Anderson that had a wind animation and hit all enemies...I had it on my first play, but never since. Sorry if I'm asking too much there, but if so, just knowing where that weapon is would be great. Had some weird name starting with Z, I believe, though I'm not sure.

randomperson wrote:By the way...is any character apart from Vance, Clifton, North, Anderson and Fayette useful? It seems to me that most offensive skills suck, so the only useful characters are ones with strong regular attacks or, in Fayette's case, good healing spells. I'd like to try using people like Tatum, Kanna and Holly for once, but they seem so completely useless. Are the characters just unbalanced, or is there some trick to these characters that I haven't found yet?

Again, I went into rm2k and gave most the enemies 1 HP (the game is long enough as it is! Had I fought all the monsters in my playthroughs, I'd probably still be playing!) so I'm not terribly familiar with anything's usefulness in combat, including items, spells, and characters, which is the other reason I couldn't write a full walkthrough. Maybe Sage knows more about this stuff?

randomperson wrote:About the jobs in Act 2...wow, never knew you could play through them with Anderson. Apart from the Olar amulet one, can you play every single job with him? If so, I guess that would be the best choice, since if you do them with Fayette, Belson/Mauldin steal all the rewards from them anyway.

Well, after thinking about it more, it's slightly more complex. Here's as best I remember.
-You can only do the boat racing job with Fayette. If you DON'T do it with her, you get a slightly different quest available with Anderson.
-The recover the statue quest can be done with either Fayette or Anderson, if I recall.
-Olar amulet can only be done with Fayette.
-The crime boss one (where you go to the... Silverstreet? strip club) can be done I THINK with either Fayette or Anderson. Whittaker and Gastonia tag along either way.

randomperson wrote:This really is a great game...I can't wait to play through it again ^_^ I'm still amazed at the amount of non-linearity.

No kidding. It must've taken serious restraint to put some of the more shocking plot revelations at the periphery of the game. I know if I had a plot twist as great as the scene with Teachy or the stuff on Severn island, I wouldn't be able to resist making it mandatory. But I guess that's what makes it so juicy is that it's out there to discover freely.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:46 pm

Yeah, the character balancing is a problem. Iishenron's talked about how that's one of the main things he'd fix if he could do it again. Especially Kanna. If you want to make one of the crappier ones usable give them all the ridiculous equipment, that should bring them up to par with the others. I haven't done the path where you get Roper, he/she (i cant even remember lol) might be good. I'll probably try that out soon.

As far as 'dialogue hunting' goes, I just looked through the code for that lol.

There's another job you can get from Florence at some point involving a missing trophy in Bowman. Can't tell what triggers it at the moment other than you having Anderson at that point. This might be what Jera was referring to as the other job you get if you don't do the racing one.

I was wondering, would it be possible to skip all the things that get you rune fragments until after Benson and Mauldin steal your stuff, and then go back and get the rune tablets so you can have all of them without necessarily having to get your stuff back?
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:55 pm

Sage Of The Wise wrote:Yeah, the character balancing is a problem. Iishenron's talked about how that's one of the main things he'd fix if he could do it again. Especially Kanna. If you want to make one of the crappier ones usable give them all the ridiculous equipment, that should bring them up to par with the others. I haven't done the path where you get Roper, he/she (i cant even remember lol) might be good. I'll probably try that out soon.

She. Understandable confusion, though.

Sage Of The Wise wrote:There's another job you can get from Florence at some point involving a missing trophy in Bowman. Can't tell what triggers it at the moment other than you having Anderson at that point. This might be what Jera was referring to as the other job you get if you don't do the racing one.

Yep, that's the one.

Sage Of The Wise wrote:I was wondering, would it be possible to skip all the things that get you rune fragments until after Benson and Mauldin steal your stuff, and then go back and get the rune tablets so you can have all of them without necessarily having to get your stuff back?

As far as I can tell, the only place you can't revisit after you have the ability to go back is the Branchville well, don't see why you can't hold off on the rune fragments until later.

EmperorJeramyu wrote:Teachy The Dischordian - Cumberland Mountains, northeast of Halifax. You have to have done the Cumberlands sidequest early in Act 1 to be able to do this one. Once the war starts go back to Halifax and exit east, and you should be able to start a long series of events that'll let you up the mountain. Note that finishing this scenario will automatically end the Kaibutsu War and move to the next phase.

Upon reinspection, I don't think you actually have to do the Cumberlands sidequest in Act 1. Adds more context, though.

EmperorJeramyu wrote:
randomperson wrote:Whoa, I never knew that sidequest involving the mountain was how to find Teachey...I tried to get up there once but it just kept on cycling through the same maps and I couldn't figure out how to get to the top, so I just quit. How do you get up there?

I usually just get lucky with trying exits. I can look up the exact solution in a bit...

Yeah... I looked at the code and it's not straightforward. Not sure if I can really figure out a definitive path.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:23 pm

hey look what i found:
Cumberland Mountains Puzzle

Apparently, it's nearly impossible to understand how this puzzle works if you don't open the game with RM2k, and even then it's not all that easy to solve. Maybe iishenron expected most people to solve it by walking randomly through the caves.

When you want to go back to the entrance after reaching one of the four places worth noting, just go back the way you came.

To the first treasure room :

1. [Entrance] Go though the middle door.
2. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
3. [Vertical Node] Go through the middle door.
4. [Passage] Follow the path and you will reach the first treasure room.


To the second treasure room :

1. [Entrance] Go through the right door.
2. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
3. [Horizontal Node] Go through the middle door.
4. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the treasure room.


To the third treasure room :

1. [Entrance] Go through the right door.
2. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
3. [Horizontal Node] Go through the right door.
4. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
5. [Horizontal Node] Go through the middle door.
6. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
7. [Vertical Node] Go through the left door.
8. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the treasure room.


To Teachey "Strife Dragon" the Discordian :

1. [Entrance] Go through the left door.
2. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
3. [Horizontal Node] Go through the left door.
4. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
5. [Horizontal Node] Go through the left door.
6. [Cave Crossroads] Leave through the northern exit.
7. [Horizontal Node] Go through the left door.
8. [Passage] Follow the path until you reach the next intersection.
9. [Vertical Node] Go though the left door.
10. [Inner Bridge] Follow the path until you reach the next screen.
11. [Outside the shrine] Save if you wish, then enter the house.
12. [Teachey's shrine] Look at the bed in front of you. The screen will flash, and the surroundings will change. Look at the clock near the northeastern corner of the room. The surroundings will change yet again. Now look at the potted plant in the southwestern corner of the room. You will now see the "true" room. Open the chest to find a revive, then leave through the northern door.


I've been looking through the code for like half an hour now, and I still can't find where the intro is stored, help?
EDIT: nvm, just found it. its in the Cumberland mountains section, of all the random places.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby EmperorJeramyu » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:24 pm

Sage Of The Wise wrote:
Cumberland Mountains Puzzle
Apparently, it's nearly impossible to understand how this puzzle works if you don't open the game with RM2k, and even then it's not all that easy to solve. Maybe iishenron expected most people to solve it by walking randomly through the caves.

No kidding. I'm a freaking genius and I couldn't figure it out. Doesn't help that he deleted all the variable names (which is approximately 1 level lamer than purposefully breaking the map tree of your game so nobody can edit it) so you can't make heads or tails of anything. I've dug around enough to be able to recognize a few of the more important story counter variables (which is already a very odd tactic, it doesn't have any particular advantage over switches, in fact it just means you have to keep a list of value meanings somewhere), but it's still a dick move.

Sage Of The Wise wrote:I've been looking through the code for like half an hour now, and I still can't find where the intro is stored, help?
EDIT: nvm, just found it. its in the Cumberland mountains section, of all the random places.

Yeah. Like 90% of all RPG maker games, the maps are organized in some utterly illogical fashion. Try looking for the map where the Kaibutsu lords have their little meeting. It's not that deep in anywhere, but it barely makes sense from a logical perspective.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:27 pm

Yeah, over time I've slowly been naming variables and switches as I go through code. The story counter variable thing probably saved a shit load of switches, but yeah, must have been a nightmare to maintain. At the very least though it sure kept me from accidentally spoiling myself the first time through. I always figured the game ended with killing Green in Dillon because you know, that's the last map. Oh, how wrong I was. Game could have been split into 4 or 5 acts as opposed to 3.

Iishenron said there was a trick to the whole Cumberland mountains thing, but I don't think anyone's ever figured out the logic.
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Re: Three The Hard Way...

Postby randomperson » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:25 am

About the trophy quest in Bowman...that's weird because I definitely remember doing that with Fayette, if I'm thinking of the same one. (The mayor asks someone to look for a lost trophy but he's actually hidden it himself for the insurance money, or something like that, IIRC) That might be something completely different, though. I'm terrible at remembering location names and such. >_>

And I can see how battles could get in the way if you're looking for really obscure things, but hey, when playing through normally, I don't like to miss out on half of the game XD

I just noticed that the Short Sword's "Frost Cut" move seems to be able to consistently paralyse bosses with no trouble =o Does this carry on later into the game? So if I keep it for really late, I could just paralyse the Kaibutsu lords and other bosses and make them jokes? XD

I'm at the island where Fayette learns her healing magic from Marion now. Awesome to be playing this again, can't wait to finally track down Teachey. I'm also going to try to do that blasted colour puzzle for once. >_<
Last edited by randomperson on Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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