Throwing them into the melting pot.............

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Postby yoreliter » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:18 pm

OMFG I GOT THEM MIXED UP.

*Brutally Assaults Himself*

Okay, I owe you an apology Dew-Drop. I guess my brain went into auto-mode or something and I mixed up theoris.

What would have been a correct thing to say is, that Dew-Drop's theory still stands, but not to as an explanation of why Traziun would kill himself and then the sword would vanish.

Dammit, i need some candy. My brain has gone into hibernation, it need to wake up, I might need it soon.
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Postby Sarcasm » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:41 pm

Look up "Will to power" in Wikipedia.
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Postby yoreliter » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:02 pm

Wow, it is amazing about how such a small, simple concept can expand to a monstrous size, after you gain a little more information about the subject.
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Postby Trihan » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:41 pm

Look at it this way; until that point, we've never seen anyone else in the entire series commit suicide with a weapon. If we are to assume that the Purpose is indeed a manifestation of a wanderer's desire to wander, then Traziun's act of suicide would logically cause the sword to feel remorse for someone who used it for the complete opposite. To my knowledge, in fact, only two characters ever commit suicide; Traziun and Slade.
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Postby yoreliter » Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:45 pm

:shock:

Good point. So maybe Traziun using the sword to defy the Purpose caused the sword to vanish?
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Postby Sarcasm » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:07 am

Will to Power, from Wikipedia

"Physiologists should think before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength — life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results."
- Walter Kaufmann

Furthermore, the will to power is something like the desire to exert one's will in self-overcoming, although this "willing" may be unconscious, for all things "desire to grow". Indeed, it is unconscious in all non-human beings; it was the frustration of this will that initially caused man to become conscious. The philosopher and art critic Arthur Danto says that "aggression" is at least sometimes an approximate synonym.[citation needed] However, Nietzsche's ideas of aggression are almost always meant as aggression toward oneself, as the energy a person motivates toward self-mastery. In any case, since the will to power is fundamental, any other drives are to be reduced to it; the "will to survive" (i.e. the survival instinct) that biologists (at least in Nietzsche's day) thought to be fundamental, for example, was in this light a manifestation of the will to power

"My idea is that every specific body strives to become master over all space and to extend its force (—its will to power) and to thrust back all that resists its extension. But it continually encounters similar efforts on the part of other bodies and ends by coming to an arrangement ("union") with those of them that are sufficiently related to it: thus they then conspire together for power. And the process goes on." -Walter Kaufmann

Thus, rather than a conscious intention to 'dominate over others,' the "will to power" is better understood as the tenuous equilibrium in a system of forces' relations to each other. While a rock, for instance, does not have a conscious (or unconsious) "will," it nevertheless acts as a site of resistance within the "will to power" dynamic. Moreover, rather than 'dominating over others' (a misinterpretation by Deleuze et al.), "will to power" is more accurately postioned in relation to the subject (a mere synecdoche, both fictitous and necessary, for there is "no doer behind the deed," [see On the Genealogy of Morals] and is an idea behind the statement words are "seductions") within the process of self-mastery and self-overcoming. The "will to power" is thus a "cosmic" inner force acting in and through both animate and inanimate objects, but it may also take on many forms that could perhaps involve such mastery but in a "life-denying" modality. Not just instincts but also higher level behaviors (even in humans) were to be reduced to the will to power. In fact, Nietzsche considered consciousness itself to be a form of instinct. This includes both such apparently harmful acts as physical violence, lying, and domination, on one hand, and such apparently non-harmful acts as gift-giving, love, and praise on the other – though its manifestations can be altered significantly, such as through art and aesthetic experience. In Beyond Good and Evil, he claims that philosophers' "will to truth" (i.e., their apparent desire to dispassionately seek objective, absolute truth) is actually nothing more than a manifestation of their will to power; this will can be life-affirming or a manifestation of nihilism, but it is the will to power all the same

"[Anything which] is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant — not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power... 'Exploitation'... belongs to the essence of what lives, as a basic organic function; it is a consequence of the will to power, which is after all the will to life" - Walter Kaufman

As indicated above, the will to power is meant to explain more than just the behavior of an individual person or animal. It is not psychological, nor intentional or subjective. The will to power lends itself more to the view, though it be homogeneous in expression, its transformations are heterogeneous, based on the altering organizations of "quanta of power".

Of note, however, involving the biological interpretation of the will to power, is that it is but one of many possible interpretations, as it would so appear – indeed, Nietzsche scholarship is overflowing with contrasting interpretations, largely due to either Nietzsche's elusive style or the interpreters' ineptitude. Others might suggest that the will to power is not really as central a concept in Nietzsche's thought. For example, it appears that Nietzsche himself might have agreed, when he suggests, in Ecce Homo, that his notion of eternal recurrence of the same is his most central thought, and the central theme of his magnum opus, Thus Spoke Zarathustra. However, Heidegger, and Deleuze as well, would argue that both concepts, the will to power and the "thought of the eternal recurrence", are to be conceived together. Additionally, one particular interpretion, which lends significant credence to the view of the will to power as the most central concept of Nietzsche's thought, has, as it were: if attention were given to the will to power "as pathos", according to Nietzsche's own definition, as the fundament of his ontological ideation of becoming, then such concinnity vis-à-vis his work suggests a more thoroughgoing interrelation to the ideas prevalent throughout his work in its entire and how other ideas might be shown to be based upon it. Such a view is then taken further to view Nietzsche's ontology as a part of a much larger conception of a process philosophy. The degree to which these current interpretations stand is still tentative and debated among scholars
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Postby Masked Gamer » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:59 am

That Will to Power entry is really interesting... Makes a lot of sense in the context of the Way; it seems like every character is driven like that (which shows the calibur of writing).

My one problem with the theory about defying the purpose is that it's a shadow sword. Yes, the Illuminati probably exists within it, but I don't think we should discount the tainted majority of the sword. Gaius or someone does mention that the sword felt remorse and that's why it broke, don't they? Well maybe it somehow awakened the Illuminati and the Illuminati destroyed itself, seeing all the damage it had done in the past.
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Postby Sarcasm » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:34 pm

What if shadow swords represent the selfish part of the will to "live"? Traziun has killed himself, and thus, ended his life, and thus, has done a deed that has -taken- all his power from him for an unselfish reason.
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Postby yoreliter » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:01 pm

I like that theory Sarcasm, and maybe shadow swords represent both the selfish part of the "Will to Live" AND the "Will to Power?"
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Postby Bryjnar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:07 pm

How does all this fit in with the Illuminati being the Sacred Swords of Justice? I find that name particularly important... as it implies quite a bit both about their nature and about that of the Purpose, if they're linked.
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Postby yoreliter » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:13 pm

Justice - The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.

So, if the Illuminati part of the sword represent the unselfish(secular maybe?) "Will to Live" and "Will to Power" (or maybe just the "Will to Live") then they would be keeping the world just according to the Purpose?

Hmm, maybe someone else should try to explain it. Because that really doesn't sound right to me.
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Postby Sarcasm » Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:45 pm

Just throwing an idea, It is rather logicical, but more evidence are needed before it can be "offical".

And we do not know if the Illuminati are the sacred swords of justice,
we know that that's what most people think.
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Postby Dew-Drop » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:03 am

My theory can explain why the sword was destroyed when Traziun killed himself with it.
When Traziun was killed this was the only death that the sword was used for that Rhue saw as wrong. Every other person that was killed was it was killed because it couldn't be helped (or because Rhue didn't mind killing that person). Because this death was not something that Rhue saw as "good" (and because it could have been avoided , unlike what happened with Lexus or Lyrra) the sword felt "remorse" and was destroyed.
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Postby yoreliter » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:13 am

You explain it so well. Rhue couldn't stop this death from happening, unlike the other where Lexus, was totally his fault for not checking if it was her(a very sad moment for me) and Lyrra was in self defense(and he didn't care). I like your theory and when I explain it to myself it makes sense.
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Postby fwacho » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:57 pm

Bryjnar wrote:I think this is basically the theory that best fits the evidence. Bearing mind that the Illuminati are the Sacred Swords of Justice, I'm inclined to think that the PS's "discrimination" is due to some kind of twisted idea of justice than a relation to the Purpose. However, we don't know anything about the Purpose, so it could be connected to the swords; in fact, it's name does imply that it may be a force of Order rather than especially Good, so the distinction then is whether the PS kills those who it thinks it is just to, or those who don't believe in justice. Occam's Razor suggests the first, and I'm inclined to agree.


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