Theory? Maybe?

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Theory? Maybe?

Postby Aeryl » Sun May 31, 2009 8:14 pm

Idea: The Way is really a myth made to control people. The Way itself is really a part -on- a regular planet, sphericalness and all. The Rolling Mists are a myth, made to keep Wanderers controlled by scaring them into either not settling down, or going too far to see the Way Poles keep Wanderers moving in a loop.


Idea's kinda out there, and I'm sorry if it's been said already, but it's something to think about.


Discuss?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:23 pm

Totally agree with you... kinda. The idea of the Rolling Mists myth has been one that I have supported for some time now. I think that this idea of the Mist moving ahead and revealing new items is possibly true... however, that would negate the idea of The End of the Way. After all, if the Mist is always moving forward, the Way ends in a different spot every second, yes?

I do not, however, think that there is Mist coming from behind, swallowing poor unfortunate stragglers. My evidence? Estrana. The fact that a settlement that large could stand for hundreds of years without being engulfed by the Back Mist seems a little fishy. Certainly, if such a Mist existed, it would have covered the city by now.

As for the Way being a Loop, you might have several things to back up your theory there. For example, Rhue (or Jeruh, or whoever) leaves the Landorin Stretch as a child, and continues walking in a particular direction. However, by the end of Episode 5, he's right back where he started? Why? Maybe because the Way, being a loop, forced him to go full-circle both physically and metaphorically.

Interesting thoughts. I hope my response was the discussion you were looking for.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:48 pm

Totally agree with you... kinda. The idea of the Rolling Mists myth has been one that I have supported for some time now. I think that this idea of the Mist moving ahead and revealing new items is possibly true... however, that would negate the idea of The End of the Way. After all, if the Mist is always moving forward, the Way ends in a different spot every second, yes?

But it would certainly explain Gaius's claim that the cave used to be the end of the way, a claim you could make of any given spot on the way. Keep in mind that Gaius is the only one that ever names that area as the end of the way, it would be absurd to actually consider it such, seeing how close it is to Estrana, a place that must be many decades old.


I do not, however, think that there is Mist coming from behind, swallowing poor unfortunate stragglers. My evidence? Estrana. The fact that a settlement that large could stand for hundreds of years without being engulfed by the Back Mist seems a little fishy. Certainly, if such a Mist existed, it would have covered the city by now.

Well, the way has to be really big. And the portion not covered by the mists(if they exist) itself must be big enough that the area where the game takes place is at least a good hundred years ahead of the mists. This is because like was said, not only does it take a long time for a city like Estrana to be built, no ones even going to bother if they think the mists are coming any time soon. So the existence of Estrana doesn't disprove the mists, but tells us more about the world (or at least the peoples perception of it).
As for the Way being a Loop, you might have several things to back up your theory there. For example, Rhue (or Jeruh, or whoever) leaves the Landorin Stretch as a child, and continues walking in a particular direction. However, by the end of Episode 5, he's right back where he started? Why? Maybe because the Way, being a loop, forced him to go full-circle both physically and metaphorically.

The way being a loop is all but a given at this point, because of the evidence you give, but you got it mixed up a little bit. The place Rhue arrives at at the end of EP5 is not Landorin, its the place that was Landorin in Rhue's mind. We see what the real Landorin looked like at the end of EP6. This means that the place Rhue thought was Landorin is from a different memory in his mind, and somehow got mixed with the Landorin one. (Re watch the conversation with Gaius at EP5 now and a few things Gaius says will make a lot more sense now). So Rhue has been there before, but we have no idea when. Given the supposed size of the way, it must have been a long time ago, which adds to the claims that Rhue has been around for a long time. The Way is certainly not a place that can be circled in a decade, if it was, people would certainly have noticed.

Also, to go back on a previous thing you mentioned. You say you believe that the way loops, and you believe their could be mists at the front of the way, but you don't believe there are mists at the back of the way. If the way is looped, and there are mists at the front, then there have to be mists at the back, because they would be the same mist, it would just depend on what side you are on.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:10 pm

Sage Of The Wise wrote:
Totally agree with you... kinda. The idea of the Rolling Mists myth has been one that I have supported for some time now. I think that this idea of the Mist moving ahead and revealing new items is possibly true... however, that would negate the idea of The End of the Way. After all, if the Mist is always moving forward, the Way ends in a different spot every second, yes?

But it would certainly explain Gaius's claim that the cave used to be the end of the way, a claim you could make of any given spot on the way. Keep in mind that Gaius is the only one that ever names that area as the end of the way, it would be absurd to actually consider it such, seeing how close it is to Estrana, a place that must be many decades old.


I do not, however, think that there is Mist coming from behind, swallowing poor unfortunate stragglers. My evidence? Estrana. The fact that a settlement that large could stand for hundreds of years without being engulfed by the Back Mist seems a little fishy. Certainly, if such a Mist existed, it would have covered the city by now.

Well, the way has to be really big. And the portion not covered by the mists(if they exist) itself must be big enough that the area where the game takes place is at least a good hundred years ahead of the mists. This is because like was said, not only does it take a long time for a city like Estrana to be built, no ones even going to bother if they think the mists are coming any time soon. So the existence of Estrana doesn't disprove the mists, but tells us more about the world (or at least the peoples perception of it).
As for the Way being a Loop, you might have several things to back up your theory there. For example, Rhue (or Jeruh, or whoever) leaves the Landorin Stretch as a child, and continues walking in a particular direction. However, by the end of Episode 5, he's right back where he started? Why? Maybe because the Way, being a loop, forced him to go full-circle both physically and metaphorically.

The way being a loop is all but a given at this point, because of the evidence you give, but you got it mixed up a little bit. The place Rhue arrives at at the end of EP5 is not Landorin, its the place that was Landorin in Rhue's mind. We see what the real Landorin looked like at the end of EP6. This means that the place Rhue thought was Landorin is from a different memory in his mind, and somehow got mixed with the Landorin one. (Re watch the conversation with Gaius at EP5 now and a few things Gaius says will make a lot more sense now). So Rhue has been there before, but we have no idea when. Given the supposed size of the way, it must have been a long time ago, which adds to the claims that Rhue has been around for a long time. The Way is certainly not a place that can be circled in a decade, if it was, people would certainly have noticed.

Also, to go back on a previous thing you mentioned. You say you believe that the way loops, and you believe their could be mists at the front of the way, but you don't believe there are mists at the back of the way. If the way is looped, and there are mists at the front, then there have to be mists at the back, because they would be the same mist, it would just depend on what side you are on.


So then, was Gauis lying about it being the End of the Way? Or was he right about it being the end once upon a time?

I still don't get your point about Estrana and the Mist... You're saying that the Mist is still a hundred years behind Estrana? ... I still don't follow. Remember also, Estrana was built atop Janwen. Neither city was or has been engulfed in Mist. Even if their existence at one time or another does not disprove the Rolling Mists altogether, I think it at least makes a dent in the idea.

I get the point about the Landorin Stretch looking different in Rhue's memories than it did in real life. That makes sense, as two memories were obviously being compressed together by his 'psyche.'

And yes, I realized immediately how contradictory I sounded when I said that the Way was a loop, but that the front mist might exist. Let me back pedal and say, I don't think Mist -- front or back -- exists at all. For starters, I have already mentioned my Estrana Not Engulfed reasoning. A second idea can be in the forerunners themselves. Their job is to follow the Front Mist and post signs where necessary. Well, if the Way is a loop, and they are continously following it, wouldn't they eventually find themselves back at signs that Forerunners had posted before them?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:58 am

So then, was Gauis lying about it being the End of the Way? Or was he right about it being the end once upon a time?

He just says the place used to be the end of the way. Essentially hes being a cryptic little bitch. I'm just going with the loop theory and saying hes technically right because of that. If he meant it any other way there's not enough information to know.

I still don't get your point about Estrana and the Mist... You're saying that the Mist is still a hundred years behind Estrana? ... I still don't follow. Remember also, Estrana was built atop Janwen. Neither city was or has been engulfed in Mist. Even if their existence at one time or another does not disprove the Rolling Mists altogether, I think it at least makes a dent in the idea.

The very fact that people believe in the mists shows us that there is no obvious proof that it doesn't exist. Because if there was, people wouldn't believe in it. The fact that Estrana was built on Janwen is pretty much a coincidence (well, that's very likely not true, there could have been any number of conspiracies behind that, probably involving Tetzel, but that's besides the point.) What i meen is, Janwen was destroyed, people moved on, and some incredibly long stretch of time later, people circled The Way and returned to the same area, and built Estrana with no knowledge Janwen, which has become little more than a legend to most people by this point, was below them.

When i said the mists were a hundred years behind Estrana I picked an arbitrary number, my point is, if the mists do exist, they must be so far behind where the game takes place that no one actually has to worry about getting caught by them in their lifetime. Otherwise no one would be building settlements and everyone would be rushing ahead as fast as possible if the mists where an actual threat. Sort of like how one day our Sun is going to grow and destroy the Earth, but that's so far off we don't really have to care.

Oh, and about your forerunner thing. Again, the way is big (or long, depending on how you think about it) It would take many generations of people to loop around The Way, no one is going to live long enough to see the same stuff twice (well, except Rhue). So there's no worry about that.

Now, that's not to say I think the mists exist. Just that this doesn't prove they don't.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:02 pm

Ah! I see. Alright, that makes it a bit clearer. You're saying that so many people wouldn't believe in it if there wasn't some chance of it being real. Gotcha. That makes sense I suppose. But then again (and I don't want to get into a religious discussion), Scientology and other religions have its share of followers with no real evidence to back their beliefs up with. But that's a faith issue more than anything, so we won't get into that.

I've noticed that Gauis tends to string people along, and almost never answers a question unless its with another question. I'm still wondering, though, why were Rhue and Gauis chasing Jeruh? Was "Rhue" Midian at the time, there to avenge Serena's murder? If so, does that mean that "Rhue" accepted multiple personalities in this order?

Venge > Kura > Midian > Rhue

Even if the Way isn't a loop, I do believe that it is a circular planet. And if its as big as you say it is, I'm guessing that it is also a planet much bigger than Earth. In that case, what would the Upper Way be, then? Is it a literal path in the clouds? Is it a spiritual world? Heaven?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:44 pm

Ah! I see. Alright, that makes it a bit clearer. You're saying that so many people wouldn't believe in it if there wasn't some chance of it being real. Gotcha. That makes sense I suppose. But then again (and I don't want to get into a religious discussion), Scientology and other religions have its share of followers with no real evidence to back their beliefs up with. But that's a faith issue more than anything, so we won't get into that.

Well, I wouldn't compare it to Scientology, which is pretty much considered stupid by 99% of the world. But yeah, you get what I'm saying.

I've noticed that Gauis tends to string people along, and almost never answers a question unless its with another question. I'm still wondering, though, why were Rhue and Gauis chasing Jeruh? Was "Rhue" Midian at the time, there to avenge Serena's murder? If so, does that mean that "Rhue" accepted multiple personalities in this order?

Venge > Kura > Midian > Rhue

I have no idea why Gaius was hunting Jeruh. I believe, and its strongly implied due to the headhunter scene in EP2, that at the time Rhue was Midian. As for your little 'progression of rhue' graph at that bottem, that sounds about right, though its more like:
Venge > any number of people > Kura > Kava > any number of people > Midian > Rhue.

The Venge part has a lot less proof behind it, and I'm not even sure about it myself, but in my opinion a mysterious room holding poems about the Mimic, Venge, and Kura, and them all actually being the same person is too poetic for Lun not to do it. Really shitty proof kinda, but that's what convinces me.

Yeah, and as far as the Upper Way goes, I have no idea. Could just be mountain tops, could be heaven, could where Traziun went to fight the Blana Sera. No idea.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:01 pm

I did like the idea of the Kura/Kava play in the middle of the episode. However, I am wondering why so many people believe that Rhue was at one time Kura. I think I recall some dialogue indicating it, but its been so long since I've played the series' earlier episodes that I don't remember exactly where I heard that.

And why the heck does it feel like we're the only two on this darn board, Sage? I think I just heard a pin drop.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:48 pm

You gotta do the Plunge Tournament side quest. You'll meet Kavax, who is actually Kava, and when you get to the final battle with him (which is epic btw) he says to Rhue "I understand your mind, and now I hate you no longer Kura."

Also, Sacrifa says at one point that after Kura killed Kava, Kura pretty much falls off the face of the earth, and the next night all the guided are killed by what is thought to be 'the ghost of Kava'. If that doesn't scream 'Rhue who was Kura killed and became Kava and went on to kill the guided for revenge' I don't know what does. >_>
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby PsychicK » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:16 am

It's okay, you're not the only two on this board. I'm floating around here sometimes ^^

Just like Sage said, it screams Rhue=Kura and Kava. I wonder which other characters in Dream Estrana could be Rhue's past identities...
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:19 pm

Sage Of The Wise wrote:Also, Sacrifa says at one point that after Kura killed Kava, Kura pretty much falls off the face of the earth, and the next night all the guided are killed by what is thought to be 'the ghost of Kava'. If that doesn't scream 'Rhue who was Kura killed and became Kava and went on to kill the guided for revenge' I don't know what does. >_>


Okay. Maybe that's the dialogue I was thinking about. My question is, if a Blood Lyn took in Venge's aura, could it be that Kura/Kava was the Blood Lyn? In other words, could the order be--

Kura/Kava > unknown # of ppl > Venge > unknown # of ppl > Midian > Jeruh/Rhue

Rather than Venge and then Kura/Kava?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:22 pm

PsychicK wrote:Just like Sage said, it screams Rhue=Kura and Kava. I wonder which other characters in Dream Estrana could be Rhue's past identities...


There was a guy in a golden cloak who pops up at House of Pnoe, the club, and other locations (he eventually tells you about the Witch's Forest in Dream Estrana). He was so sinister and mysterious, I really expected him to pop up again. Could he have been Kava or Kura?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:27 am

Okay. Maybe that's the dialogue I was thinking about. My question is, if a Blood Lyn took in Venge's aura, could it be that Kura/Kava was the Blood Lyn? In other words, could the order be--

Kura/Kava > unknown # of ppl > Venge > unknown # of ppl > Midian > Jeruh/Rhue

Rather than Venge and then Kura/Kava?

I'm not sure where that Blood Lyn part is coming from, but the Venge theory requires Venge to be first, since that happens at Janwen's destruction, while the Kava/Kura story takes place at some point at time where there are Guided, and the Guided weren't around until after Janwen's destruction.

There was a guy in a golden cloak who pops up at House of Pnoe, the club, and other locations (he eventually tells you about the Witch's Forest in Dream Estrana). He was so sinister and mysterious, I really expected him to pop up again. Could he have been Kava or Kura?

That would be Gallagher. I'm not sure what his deal was, but his big moment was appearing out of nowhere to help you fight the phantom, then promptly disappearing back to nowhere. Kava is already accounted for in Dream Estrana, and as for Kura, I doubt he's Gallagher. Hell, the real Kura wouldn't even know Kava, since he was dead by that time.
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby McPhearson » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:03 am

See, that's the trouble I had understanding the entire Venge storyline. Let me get this straight:

A bunch of Lyn attack the Lord Below and his lessers at Janwen. They use the Illuminati, and destroy a whole mess of bad guys. Venge is killed and absorbed into an Illuminati (or does he absorb someone else), which is corrupted later into a Shadow Sword. Venge scars the Lord Below, and then 'banished' to the Middle Way. Did I get that right? And if not, where did I mess up? Was Venge killed first, or did he absorb someone else?
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Re: Theory? Maybe?

Postby Sage Of The Wise » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:55 pm

Well, we're going so far in to theory land at this point you could make 100 different variations of what happened and they could all be plausible. I'd say Venge absorbing one of the Lyn makes more sense then one of the Lyn absorbing Venge. For one, a Lyn who thinks he's Venge isn't going to attack the Lord Below, but if Venge thought he was one of the Lyn it makes sense. Of course, then there's the question of why Venge has a sword to begin with. Did he just pick one up in the aftermath accidentally?

But I mean, we could say that the Lyn survived the blast that obliterated Janwen because their swords protected them but it drove them all crazy with the corruption of the swords and the massive aura absorption and they all crazily killed each other until one left and that one left was only Venge in the sense that Venge was just one of the many auras absorbed by this person.
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