BETA TOPIC: The Theory Compilation (Spoilers)

[EmperorJeramyu]

Controversey aside, I did have a super productive conversation with Trihan. I also ended up documenting everything I think I know about The Way. I did edit it a bit for continuity.


Session Start: Thu Apr 28 20:47:29 2005
Session Ident: Trihan
[20:47] Session Ident: Trihan (Sleephan@2FB1253C.7077D75E.F1D3CB1A.IP)
[20:47] <Trihan> y helo thar
[20:47] <Jeramyu> Ok?
[20:47] <Trihan> I played episode 6.
[20:47] <Jeramyu> Ok.
[20:48] <Trihan> Ryethe said you and he had been discussing theories and shit, and there's a lot of stuff I don't get so I'd like to hear what you think.
[20:48] <Jeramyu> Ok.
[20:48] <Jeramyu> What would you like to know?
[20:48] <Trihan> Everything you have.
[20:48] <Jeramyu> give me a starting point here
[20:48] <Trihan> The red haired chick in the House of Pnoe.
[20:49] <Trihan> You think she's Traziun's mother?

Traziun's Mother

[20:50] <Jeramyu> Yup
[20:50] <Jeramyu> (copy and paste here...)
[20:50] <Jeramyu> I'm pretty sure that's Traziun's mother. She mentions a man who's been alive for hundreds of years by a shadow sword. This man is Kalmar (Traziun in E5: "Hello father, you're looking young") She recognized Rhue because it was Rhue who killed her/ had been trying to kill her under the influnce of his sword. Traziun found this out, and that's why he destroys Rhue's sword in the normal ending, completing his vengeance.
[20:51] <Trihan> What about the ending where he commits suicide?
[20:51] <Jeramyu> That's the one where he destroy's Rhue's sword.
[20:51] <Trihan> How does committing suicide destroy the sword?
[20:51] <Jeramyu> That ties into my Rhue having an illuminati theory.
[20:51] <Trihan> Carry on.
[20:52] <Trihan> Ryethe thinks that Rhue might have been Midian originally.
[20:53] <Jeramyu> uh...
[20:53] <Trihan> I disagreed.
[20:53] <Jeramyu> anyway, the illuminati theory...

The illuminati theory

[20:53] <Jeramyu> I have a theroy that Rhue's sword is an illuminati. That would explain how Gaius can't be hurt by it. The illuminati couldn't hurt Gaius because Gaius has done no wrong, and is the perfect blade of justice (And not Rhue, like I previously theorized). This also explains how Traziun destroyed it. In the sword's eyes, Traziun had done nothing to deserve death, so when Traziun forced the sword to kill him, it is as Gaius said "He made it [the sword] feel regret", destroying the sword. This illuminati theory also explains why Rhue had to attack the shadow sword in E2 (Night Reaper, which Traziun got regardless).
[20:54] <Trihan> My first thought when Traziun committed suicide and said that line were that it was HIM who killed his mother.
[20:55] <Jeramyu> Traziun forced the illuminati to commit an injustice, which means it could no longer exsist as a sword of perfect justice.

The perfect blades

[20:53] <Trihan> I thought that Rhue + the Phantom Slasher were the perfect blade.
[20:54] <Jeramyu> I have something for that too.
[20:54] <Jeramyu> This theory also eliminates the possibility of Rhue being the perfect blade, which I had previously held. It's simple: Rhue/Jeruh is Tetzel's instrument of perfect justice, and Gaius is Kalmar's. The blood lyn and guided kinda hate each other, so I suppose they intended them to duke it out. Which they were going to, but "Rhue" (We don't know his original identity, he was probably just a bounty hunter or something) got to Jeruh before Gaius did.
[20:55] <Trihan> So was the man who Rhue killed Jeruh?
[20:55] <Jeramyu> Yes

The girl and Serena

[20:55] <Trihan> He also said you think The Girl was Serena.
[20:56] <Jeramyu> Yup.
[20:56] <Trihan> This should be interesting.
[20:56] <Jeramyu> Perhaps the neatest tie-in that supports this is Serena. Serena is "The Girl", or the one who took you into her home when you wake up in The City. It's revealed her true hair color is blonde, (The whole choosing hair color in E4 was a nice little diversion) and it's just obvious by how significant she is. She doesn't recognize Midian because he's all grown up, and vise versa. There's a scene in the E6 (I found it in rm2k, never in the actual game), where The Girl watches with depression lovebird Rhe and Lexus in the park.
[20:56] <Trihan> never in the actua
[20:57] <Jeramyu> I suppose the hair color is the only solid evidence, but it just seems like something Lun would do.
[20:57] <Jeramyu> And a very poetic tie-in
[20:57] <Trihan> It cut off at "I found it in rm2k, never in the actua"
[20:57] <Jeramyu> oh
[20:58] <Jeramyu> "There's a scene in the E6 (I found it in rm2k, never in the actual game), where The Girl watches with depression lovebird Rhe and Lexus in the park."
[20:58] <Trihan> Oh yeah, I saw that.

The City

[20:58] <Trihan> So The City never really existed, did it? I assume so since everyone who was there was someone who died.
[20:58] <Jeramyu> The city is quite confusing.
[20:59] <Trihan> I think it was Rhue conversing with all the different auras his sword had absorbed.
[20:59] <Jeramyu> I've managed to justify it being a city of all those Rhue's sword killed
[20:59] <Trihan> The City is a representation of all the people whose auras are contained in it.
[20:59] <Jeramyu> But it still bothers me.
[20:59] <Trihan> Why Estrana?
[20:59] <Trihan> Why isn't Cetsa there?
[20:59] <Jeramyu> Rhue didn't kill Cetsa.
[20:59] <Trihan> Well his sword didn't kill Cetsa.
[20:59] <Trihan> But he didn't kill Slade either.
[21:00] <Jeramyu> He did pretty much impale slade
[21:01] <Jeramyu> And absorb his aura
[21:01] <Jeramyu> s

The link between victims

[21:00] <Trihan> I've kind of figured out the link between all the PS' victims now too.
[21:00] <Trihan> It was all people who were aggressive towards Rhue, or otherwise tried to dissuade him or divert him from the path of his quest, as it were.
[21:01] <Trihan> Which makes sense if the PS was his guardian, and was trying to make sure he wasn't straying from his path.
[21:01] <Jeramyu> Yup
[21:01] <Jeramyu> And nice observation about the trend among victims. I never quite figured it out.

More Traziun's mom stuff

[21:01] <Trihan> Of course, it's never really answered exactly what the PS actually is.
[21:02] <Jeramyu> I think Traziun's mom might have shed some light
[21:02] <Jeramyu> Let me look...
[21:03] <Trihan> Of course, the theory about Rhue's sword being an Illuminati would make the assumption that Illuminati function the same way as Shadow Swords.
[21:04] <Jeramyu> That's probably true. After all, Kalmar and Tetzel were using the two types of swords for the same thing.
[21:04] <Jeramyu> hmm
[21:05] <Jeramyu> Traziun's mom also explains how a sword only needs to taste death in order to absorb an aura

Note: This theory raises a few questions. If Kalmar is utilizing shadow swords, would Gaius have one too?

Kalmar and the PS

[21:04] <Trihan> Looking at the dialogue with Traziun's mother, do you think perhaps the PS was Kalmar's original aura? He possibly separated his original aura as a sentient being.
[21:04] <Jeramyu> I don't think Kalmar ever had Rhue's sword.
[21:04] <Trihan> WOMAN: He spent decades researching
[21:04] <Trihan> and examining the problem trying to find
[21:04] <Trihan> some solution.\|\| To a degree he even
[21:04] <Trihan> succeeded in doing so...
[21:04] <Jeramyu> Ah
[21:05] <Trihan> I wonder how he succeeded.
[21:06] <Jeramyu> interesting point on Kalmar and the PS
[21:07] <Jeramyu> That would make sense
[21:07] <Trihan> The only thing I can think of that Kalmar could do to stop his original aura being destroyed by his sword would be to separate it as something else.
[21:07] <Trihan> We already know that the aura can be separated from the body.
[21:07] <Jeramyu> In order to prevent the inflow of auras from causing the user to kill themself, they are extended as another being
[21:07] <Trihan> But then that goes against the whole "Rhue is the PS" thing.
[21:08] <Jeramyu> Not necessarily
[21:08] <Jeramyu> Maybe tetzel could've known too

Sacrifa

[21:05] <Trihan> The other thing Ryethe is concerned about is why Sacrifa is trying to get into the tower in the first place.
[21:06] <Jeramyu> Lun mentioned in a note that he really didn't develope Sacrifa as much as he wanted to
[21:06] <Jeramyu> hmm
[21:06] <Trihan> Yeah, I saw that comment.
[21:06] <Trihan> The comments were...disturbing.
[21:06] <Trihan> And confusing.

The two people...

[21:08] <Trihan> I'm still not quite sure what happened between Jeruh, Rhue and Midian. And the two guys Jeruh saw when he got his sword.
[21:08] <Jeramyu> The two guys Jeruh got the sword from are probably an unsolvable mystery.
[21:09] <Trihan> I had a theory about that but it doesn't really hold water.

The Way 2? (Note to Lun: Don't call it that)

[21:09] <Jeramyu> Lun's definately leaving room for a sequel, so perhaps that's for the future
[21:09] <Trihan> I don't really see how it can continue now.
[21:09] <Jeramyu> Well, it could just be a new plot with new characters
[21:10] <Jeramyu> And maybe shed some further backstory on some of the characters
[21:10] <Trihan> Did episode 6 ever seem disjointed or kind of rushed to you? Like Lun just got fed up and decided to end it earlier than he'd wanted?
[21:10] <Jeramyu> I think its branching nature makes it confusing
[21:10] <Trihan> Yeah.
[21:10] <Trihan> It's a very non-linear episode.
[21:10] <Trihan> The courtroom scene was surreal.

Endings

[21:10] <Jeramyu> The (true) ending definately felt satisfying for me
[21:10] <Jeramyu> heh
[21:11] <Trihan> How many endings are there? I know of four.
[21:11] <Jeramyu> I thought there was only 3 ones, with a few variations
[21:11] <Trihan> I wish becoming the Pharaphalyn had affected more stuff in the game too.
[21:11] <Trihan> There's the one where Traziun dies, the one where Rhue runs away, the one where he lives with Lexus in that house and the one in the Reaches.
[21:12] <Jeramyu> The one where Rhue runs away and the one where he lives with Lexus are the same one
[21:12] <Trihan> Oh.
[21:12] <Trihan> Three then.
[21:12] <Jeramyu> You just get to see an additional scene if you have all the stuff for the house
[21:13] <Trihan> Ah, I see now.
[21:13] <Jeramyu> There're a variations of the Traziun-suicide one depending on how high your relationship with Kloe is

Midian and Jeruh and The City and The Sword

[21:13] <Trihan> So any other theories you have?
[21:13] <Jeramyu> Well, there are still some things that slightly confuse me
[21:13] <Jeramyu> Like Midian being in The City
[21:13] <Trihan> Same here.
[21:14] <Trihan> Perhaps Midian got there the same way as Rhue.
[21:14] <Trihan> One thing that confuses me is Jeruh being in the tower as a kid.
[21:14] <Jeramyu> Jeruh isn't in the tower as a kid. He's the same age as when Rhue killed him.
[21:14] <Trihan> So he is.
[21:15] <Jeramyu> Rhue didn't kill him as a kid
[21:15] <Trihan> That's why it confused me, but I see I was wrong now.
[21:15] <Trihan> I thought he was a kid in the tower.
[21:15] <Jeramyu> ah
[21:15] <Jeramyu> heh
[21:15] <Jeramyu> Still, Midian. Midian would've had to have been slaine by the sword at one point. This just seems a little awkward. There's really nothing to indicate that Midian was killed at any point. Rhue couldn't have done it, because we've been in control of "Rhue" since his existance began.
[21:16] <Trihan> Maybe he died in the water.
[21:16] <Jeramyu> This leaves Jeruh, which still seems kind of odd. This ties into the mystery of how people interperate their own existance in The City. Nobody really remembers being killed, (Which I guess explains Jopaga), and nobody remembers when they came. I guess Midian could've been killed by Jeruh at one point, but Jeruh never mentions that at any point. Maybe he doesn't remember? Maybe some of Rhue's memories of giving Serena the locket were Midian's?
[21:16] <Jeramyu> Well, Midian said he trained with a sword to go out and hunt Jeruh.
[21:16] <Trihan> Thing is, if Jeruh had a shadow sword, where did Rhue get his?
[21:16] <Jeramyu> Rhue's is Jeruh's
[21:17] <Trihan> Oh, I see. Because Rhue killed Jeruh the sword chose him instead.
[21:17] <Jeramyu> Yeah, it kinda passed on the duty of Tetzel's justice

Note: I think the reason the headhunter called Rhue Midian in e3 is because they were both hunting Jeruh, and that's maybe as much as the headhunter knew. Could've gotten them confused or something.

Scatha and Dirk

[21:17] <Trihan> There's still the question of Scatha and Dirk.
[21:18] <Jeramyu> What's to ask?
[21:18] <Trihan> Well they were built up quite a lot in episode 5 and then nothing. It seemed like they still had something to come.
[21:18] <Trihan> I mean, we don't really know who Dirk is.
[21:19] <Jeramyu> I don't think he really is anybody. He apparently knew Scatha at one point, so they just could've been part of the same stretch at one point.
[21:19] <Trihan> And all we know of Scatha is that she's Slade's sister and she ended up in the Pits. They were played up as more important to the plot than they eventually turned out to be. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
[21:19] <Trihan> Well Scatha knew Rhue and Serena.
[21:19] <Trihan> And he says he's the closest to a Forerunner there is.
[21:20] <Jeramyu> Well, he knows a lot.
[21:20] <Jeramyu> About Eyashu and such.
[21:20] <Trihan> Also, Tetzel's books. It seemed like too important a point to just give up on, but there was never anything more about it.
[21:20] <Jeramyu> That kind of stuff is probably just trivial.
[21:20] <Trihan> There are just so many potential plot threads that would have been awesome.
[21:21] <Trihan> And too many questions left unanswered.

The secret of the end of The Way, and the physical nature of The Way

[21:21] <Jeramyu> Still, I'm pretty sure I figured out "the secret of the end of the way"
[21:21] <Trihan> What's that?
[21:21] <Jeramyu> It's cyclical.
[21:21] <Jeramyu> Right down to the events that happen on it.
[21:22] <Trihan> To a point I agree.
[21:22] <Jeramyu> Ryethe brought up a very good point. Sacrifa mentions that he found a lost city under Estrana. This, is Janwen.
[21:22] <Trihan> I think the cyclical nature of the end of the way is more metaphorical than anything else. It bears a great significance to the games.
[21:22] <Trihan> You end episode 6 at the point episode 1 started.
[21:22] <Trihan> Kinda.
[21:23] <Jeramyu> Yup
[21:23] <Trihan> Well the guy said that the Lord Below ended up underneath Janwen.
[21:23] <Trihan> And the Pits were below Estrana.
[21:23] <Trihan> Which can only logically suggest that Janwen was underneath Estrana.
[21:23] <Jeramyu> And that's the reason why Dirk and Eyashu could only be the closest people to being forerunners, because there really are no such things.
[21:24] <Jeramyu> Well, Janwen was the sight of worshipers of the lord below.
[21:24] <Trihan> Maybe the Rolling Mists don't exist either.
[21:24] <Jeramyu> I think they might.
[21:24] <Trihan> There are certain things I wish had been fleshed out more, or had more significance in the end.
[21:24] <Trihan> But I suppose alliteration is better than nothing.
[21:25] <Jeramyu> I think the basic outlines were given for certain things, the details to be left to the imagination.

Unlosable final battle? Wtf?

[21:25] <Trihan> Yeah.
[21:26] <Trihan> I think it's interesting that you can't lose the final plunge.
[21:26] <Jeramyu> You can't?
[21:26] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[21:26] <Jeramyu> that's news to me
[21:26] <Trihan> If the Phantom Slasher beats you Rhue says "Burn you..." and your HP goes up to above 100%.
[21:26] <Trihan> Even if it inflicts a Step 4 injury.
[21:26] <Trihan> Which it did on me.

Note: This is still a pretty big mystery to me. Any suggestions?

The Pharaphalyn

[21:27] <Jeramyu> I inflicted a step 4 against the pharaphalyn
[21:28] <Trihan> That's another thing. Wasn't there supposed to be a way to distinguish who the current Pharaphalyn is?
[21:28] <Jeramyu> Yeah
[21:28] <Trihan> I didn't really see anything special about him.
[21:28] <Trihan> Or Rhue, when he becomes it.
[21:28] <Jeramyu> Well, he had some pretty weird dialog

Note: Still, nothing I'm sure of.

The phantom (not slasher)

[21:30] <Trihan> I never got to the Phantom.
[21:30] <Trihan> The play was fun.
[21:30] <Jeramyu> heh
[21:30] <Jeramyu> indeed
[21:31] <Trihan> Whoa.
[21:31] <Trihan> The Phantom actually has some pretty revealing dialogue.
[21:33] <Jeramyu> "There is only one person in this
[21:33] <Jeramyu> entire city that you ever really
[21:33] <Jeramyu> knew.
[21:33] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[21:33] <Trihan> And about Rhue. "The answer really depends on who you are. There is more than one answer to that question."
[21:34] <Jeramyu> maybe
[21:34] <Jeramyu> that's talking to the player
[21:34] <Jeramyu> And describing the character they associated the most with
[21:34] <Jeramyu> =P
[21:34] <Jeramyu> I dunno
[21:35] <Trihan> I thought it was more alluding to his multiple auras.
[21:35] <Jeramyu> Could be

Note: Maybe it's talking refering to wheather or not you got Lexus or Sorya?

[21:35] <Trihan> I wish I could burrow into Lun's brain.
[21:36] <Trihan> I wish there had been more stuff about the mirrors.
[21:38] <Jeramyu> Well, "Rhue" doesn't like mirrors because the mind and body don't match

Note: It seems likely that the phantom is the famous art dude, who went insane after discovering some sort of truth, or something like that.

The fate of Cetsa?

[21:36] <Jeramyu> Did you notice that depending on what ending you get, Cetsa will sometimes not be there in the credits?
[21:36] <Jeramyu> If you get the Lexus end, she's not there at the end
[21:36] <Trihan> If you choose to stay with Lexus? Yeah, I saw.
[21:36] <Trihan> There's just the blood.
[21:36] <Jeramyu> yeah
[21:37] <Jeramyu> that seems like something for a sequel or something...
[21:37] <Trihan> There are a lot of things that don't add up.

Stats

[21:38] <Trihan> I'm compiling a list of all the choices, rewards and where all the notch items and stuff are.
[21:38] <Trihan> Of course, this will probably change between betas.
[21:38] <Jeramyu> Ah, I had pretty near perfect stats
[21:38] <Trihan> I know that, but it would have been nice to have some more concrete scenes with them.
[21:38] <Jeramyu> Granted, I sacrifcied almost all the heart stones I could for lexus
[21:38] <Trihan> It's also intriguing that the maximum plunge you can have by ep6 is 19, but Lun's default started you with 20.
[21:38] <Jeramyu> I think Maximum HP is around 400
[21:38] <Trihan> Having 19 pl is actually undesirable because you miss better stuff.
[21:39] <Trihan> So I went with 18 instead.
[21:39] <Trihan> Default stats shouldn't be higher than the best you can have.
[21:39] <Jeramyu> Whatever I had, it was enough to slap around any plunge I encountered
[21:40] <Trihan> I missed most of the extra stuff when I was actually playing it. I'm surprised at how much I missed.
[21:40] <Jeramyu> Yeah, my first play through I must have seen about 4th of the game
[21:40] <Jeramyu> I think waaay too much of the content hinges on doing all the obscure lexus stuff

The PS + Gharon!? + Pits ending

[21:55] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[21:55] <Jeramyu> The PS is there when you fight gharon
[21:56] <Jeramyu> it makes some kind of pose when everyone is thrown off
[21:56] <Trihan> Where do you fight him?
[21:56] <Jeramyu> gharon?
[21:56] <Trihan> Yeah.
[21:56] <Jeramyu> The reaches
[21:57] <Trihan> Oh yeah.
[21:57] <Jeramyu> When you defeat him, everyone is thrown off
[21:57] <Jeramyu> Ah
[21:57] <Jeramyu> including the PS
[21:59] <Jeramyu> well
[21:59] <Jeramyu> wait
[21:59] <Jeramyu> it doesn't look like the PS is thrown off
[21:59] <Jeramyu> but it outstretches its arms
[22:01] <Jeramyu> ...
[22:01] <Jeramyu> charlatans of justice rule
[22:01] <Trihan> You can see the PS following Rhue when everyone's talking to him.
[22:01] <Jeramyu> yeah
[22:02] <Jeramyu> and then the PS kills them
[22:02] <Trihan> Yeah.
[22:02] <Jeramyu> because they distract Rhue
[22:02] <Jeramyu> And turn him away from his mission

Note: This is probably the most annoyingly mysterious thing to me right now.

Haha. Forum theories.

[22:02] <Trihan> So really, in the end, a lot of the forum theories were right.
[22:02] <Jeramyu> Well
[22:02] <Jeramyu> not exactly
[22:02] <Trihan> But they touched on it.
[22:02] <Jeramyu> yeah
[22:03] <Jeramyu> some of them suggest the correct answers, but they aren't the actual theories.
[22:03] <Trihan> It's funny how such a predictable ending can still leave so much unanswered.
[22:03] <Jeramyu> Most of the theories are really reaching WAAAY too far into things
[22:03] <Trihan> Yeah.
[22:04] <Trihan> But y'know.
[22:04] <Jeramyu> the PS being Traziun's mother? wtf?
[22:04] <Trihan> Has it actually been answered what the shadows Rhue fights are?
[22:04] <Trihan> Like the one with a funky spiky head in the Pits, and the guy in Slade's...whatever it was.
[22:04] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[22:04] <Jeramyu> I'm not sure
[22:05] <Jeramyu> (potty break)
[22:05] <Trihan> Sure.

The shadows

[22:09] <Jeramyu> Ok
[22:09] <Jeramyu> back
[22:10] <Jeramyu> the shadows...
[22:10] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[22:11] <Jeramyu> well, the secret shadow fights in The City are shadows Scatha, Strata, Cetsa, and someone else I can't think of off the top of my head
[22:11] <Jeramyu> But the others ones... that's a very good question
[22:29] <Trihan> The shadow plungers are Strata, Scatha, Cetsa and some other guy. It's not Slade.
[22:30] <Jeramyu> It's a generic headhunter sprite, I think
[22:30] <Trihan> That's what I thought.
[22:30] <Trihan> I wonder why the shadow plungers are Strata, Scatha and Cetsa.
[22:30] <Trihan> Only one of the three is dead, and even that isn't *certain*.
[22:31] <Jeramyu> yeah

Note: The shadow in the pits in E3, is on the same charset ("PhantomSlashercharas", or something like that) as the PS, so it's possible that it's another sword extention thingy.

A slight mystery with the girl?

[22:11] <Trihan> Hey, one thing about The Girl being Serena.
[22:11] <Jeramyu> ?
[22:12] <Trihan> Why is she older?
[22:12] <Jeramyu> ...plot hole?
[22:12] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[22:13] <Trihan> How do you know that the secret fights in The City are Scatha, Strata and Cetsa?
[22:13] <Jeramyu> Because they're blackened versions of their respective characters.
[22:15] <Trihan> Ah.
[22:15] <Jeramyu> hmmm
[22:15] <Jeramyu> whoah
[22:15] <Jeramyu> "WayE4NPCPoses2.png"
[22:16] <Jeramyu> One of the sprites is The Girl, dead
[22:16] <Trihan> So I see.
[22:18] <Jeramyu> hmmm...
[22:21] <Jeramyu> I'm going to say the e4npcposes2 is just some sort of charset snafu
[22:21] <Jeramyu> Because I'm 99% sure The Girl was never in e4

Note: Now that I think about it, there's really no reason why people couldn't age in dream Estrana.

Reflecting on Jeruh and the men with the sword

[22:18] <Trihan> There's a charset that matches up to the original shadow of when Rhue's telling Traziun how he got his sword, too.
[22:18] <Jeramyu> where?
[22:20] <Trihan> Hang on, need to find the set again.
[22:21] <Trihan> othertravellers.
[22:22] <Jeramyu> in e6?
[22:22] <Trihan> I don't think it's there any more, the charset. But the flashback in episode 2 matches a charset in "othertravellers" of a guy with white clothes and two white things on his face.
[22:23] <Trihan> You know, it's kind of ironic looking at what actually happened and Rhue's story of it.
[22:24] <Trihan> "Looking back, it seems strange how they didn't say much about a little kid like me being out all alone at such an hour."
[22:24] <Trihan> "Actually, I don't even remember anything they said. But one of them gave me a sword, I guess because he had no use for it anymore."
[22:24] <Trihan> "The two strangers didn't so much as turn to watch me go. They just stood there the whole time."
[22:24] <Jeramyu> Well, that was just a lie Jeruh told to himself
[22:24] <Trihan> Yeah, but it's an ironic parallel.
[22:24] <Trihan> They didn't say much because one was dead and the other was catatonic.
[22:24] <Trihan> He didn't have any use for the sword because he was dead.
[22:25] <Trihan> And they just stood there because they couldn't do anything else.
[22:25] <Jeramyu> heh
[22:25] <Jeramyu> I suppose
[22:25] <Trihan> That's another thing that bothers me.
[22:26] <Jeramyu> I guess one of them was just another of Tetzel's tools maybe
[22:26] <Trihan> The whole thing about one of the guys just sitting there staring blankly into space.
[22:26] <Trihan> It seems like too...specific a point to be meaningless.
[22:26] <Jeramyu> Yeah...

The beginning?

[22:32] <Trihan> You think the fact that you can save at the end is just something Lun forgot to remove?
[22:32] <Jeramyu> I'm not sure.
[22:33] <Jeramyu> The map with the sword after the credits and stuff is labled "The beginning"
[22:33] <Trihan> I know, but the beginning of what?
[22:34] <Jeramyu> Well, if there is a sequel of sorts, it could be the beginning of a whole new story
[22:34] <Trihan> Yeah.
[22:34] <Trihan> Do you have any idea what the deal with these comments is?
[22:35] <Jeramyu> "Five birds fly nimbly by"
[22:35] <Jeramyu> "Stones throw away from the river of life

Lun's insane commentry

[22:35] <Trihan> Not just those. The comments strewn throughout the whole thing.
[22:35] <Jeramyu> gah!
[22:35] <Jeramyu> TOO MYSTERIOUS!
[22:35] <Trihan> In places it's like Lun is making comments for Rhue's inner thoughts and shit.
[22:35] <Jeramyu> Yeah
[22:35] <Trihan> But...why?
[22:35] <Jeramyu> Did you see the coded comments?
[22:35] <Trihan> Coded comments?
[22:36] <Jeramyu> In "Start Map"
[22:36] <Jeramyu> the even on the right
[22:36] <Trihan> Oh yeah.
[22:36] <Trihan> There's another thing like that somewhere else.
[22:36] <Jeramyu> Ryethe claims its some sort of cypher
[22:36] <Jeramyu> He says he's seen something like it before
[22:37] <Trihan> What on Earth could it BE though?
[22:37] <Jeramyu> Probably some really, really deep comments by Lun
[22:38] <Trihan> While I'm documenting all the positions of things I'm going to wade through each and every event and see how many interesting comments I can spot.
[22:40] <Trihan> That'd be so fucking ironic, if he coded all the answers to out unanswered questions into a raindrop or something.
[22:49] <Jeramyu> well, I'm out
[22:49] <Trihan> Later dude.
[22:50] <Jeramyu> this has definately been a productive discussion
[22:50] <Trihan> That it has.
[22:50] <Jeramyu> I'll have to post it in Forerunners
[22:50] <Jeramyu> bye
Session Close: Thu Apr 28 22:50:31 2005

[EmperorJeramyu]

Addenum #1

Reading the discussion, I can see that there really are no shadow swords or illuminati. The fact that they could theoretically both be used for some form of "perfect justice" shows that there's really no difference between them at all. However, for the sake of clarity, they can still be labled.

Addenum #2

Arctura, aruguably the final boss, could be the name of Rhue's sword. Arctura is the name of an illuminati, and the boss was trying to prevent Rhue from learning the truth like the PS, which Rhue's guardian/manifestation of the sword. So it could be some kind of soul of the sword or something. I dunno how it would work. =P

[Fredric]

About dream Estrana.. Isn't it possible that Rhue's sword absorbed the aura of the whole city when it was destroyed. Jopaga has stated that wanderers aren't the only things with auras.

[Alundra]

Hey peoples! Seems I wasn't too far from the truth with this avatar of mine huh? And it seems the song 'crestfallen' from the smashing pumpkins did tell most of the story of the way.

Though you have made a lot clear I'm still stuck with lotsa questions.
Could it be that rhue is around a long time just like Gauis says at one ending? that might have a connection with the small comedy story at the end of the first episode...
Something I'm still wondering about is the citadels on the opening screen... What's with them? Anybody knows what they truly are?
And what's the deal with 'the upper way' or at least if that's the place where rhue and the PS fight their final battle...

Somehow I'm now totally confused about slade's memory. If the small girl died was supposedly serena and the bigger one being chasta... why is it then that the girl in rhue's memories which you guys now claim to be an older serena looks exactly like the blacked out chasta character...
Isn't it possible that trazuin's father is the lord from below incarnate?
Nobody mentionned any of this before, but what was trazuin doing there when rhue met him in the first place...? He seemed to be eager to get rhue to join him... did he do that with a specific purpose in mind?
So, what's gonna happen to rahn? and the other ppl that were walking in the snow?
What about the book of sermoth? Is "rhue" still going to look for it? He's gotta be able to find out who is he is in that book right?
WHat's the deal with the swords made of special alloy? WHO made those things actually and for what purpose? They've been around since Janwen, which means basically also before Trazuin's dad...?
what is the purpose truly? An invention by Tetsel?
why were both rhue and gauis chasing the psycho jeruh? maybe rhue and gauis had worked together before and the man they refer to is not even jeruh but midian...? couldn't it be that they were supposed to be cleansing the way of impurities... Survivors of the Landorin massacre? It is not too much of a farfetched theory as rhue and gauis stumble very quickly afterwards on Lyrra...
And last but not least, maybe irrelevant, but I dunno, how do slade and strata meet? (that's what slade said)
I'm pretty sure that there's gonna be a sequel ... it's not possible for lun just to stop the story with so many questions...

[Trihan]

I think Rhue has been around a long time. The theory that Rhue is/was Kura makes a lot of sense. I don't think it's coincidence that Rhue was picked to play Kura in the play, and I also don't think it's coincidence that Kavax was so named.

Remember what Sorya says..."Symbolically speaking, dropping a letter from one's name represents the release of an old outlook, attitude, or sin. In the same manner adding an additional letter would symbolise a new addition to one's self."

The first one is self-evident in the Jeruh thing. He removed a letter from his name to absolve himself of the sin of killing everyone and rearranged the letters into his new name, Rhue. Kavax would appear to have done the same thing, adding a letter to his name when...reincarnated, maybe? We have to remember one thing; everyone in Dream Estrana is dead, including Kavax...Kava was killed by Kura. If we go with a slight slant on the theory that The City is inhabited by everyone KURA has killed rather than attributing it to the sword he got from Jeruh only, then Kava would logically be there.

I think the Upper Way is the place where Kalmar was when Traziun challenged him.

Slade's memory...I don't think the small girl was Serena at all. It's a tenuous link to say that Serena was Slade's sister, and would tie the characters together TOO tightly.

That said, I have an interesting theory about Chasta...she says she knew Serena, and she seems to recognise Rhue. I think that Slade and family lived on the Landorin Stretch too, or were at least near it. Chasta wasn't killed in the Landorin Massacre because she'd already been thrown into the Pits. This is a pretty far-fetched theory, but it makes a certain sense.

When Rhue first met Traziun...he DID seem awfully conveniently placed, didn't he? I mean, to be THAT close to Gaius...it definitely sets off alarm bells in my head that make me wonder if Traziun knew Gaius was there, and also knew who Rhue was.

I don't think Rahn's important.

The books of Sermeot and whathaveyou seemed too important a plot point to drop, but Lun seems to have done just that. I don't think they'll be mentioned again.

The Purpose is almost certainly a fabrication of Tetzel's.

It's VERY interesting to think that Rhue and Gaius killed Midian before they killed Rhue, but if we're going with the theory of The City being populated by people whose auras were absorbed by Phantom Slasher this wouldn't make sense. If we go with my slightly abridged theory about Kura, this is possible. It's also likely that Gaius was cleaning the Way of impurities, being the perfect blade of Kalmar (or so we are led to believe). Rhue could have been Tetzel's.

I think Strata could have been Chasta's paramour, which is why Slade recognises him, but he wouldn't remember why.

[EmperorJeramyu]

Another random note: It makes that Rhue's sword can absorb that of entire cities. If the "Lost City" truely is Janwen, then Rhue's sword was probably one of the illuminati that came to destroy the city.

[Alundra]

I agree with Jera but I wonder if rhue's sword could really absorb a whole city... wouldn't there be more people around then? What with all the guided? The slang dudes? The vigilante? Patura?
What about people like zedicious (or however u spell it) or sacrificia's wife... Yes I know theory goes that they have to be killed by rhue's sword.
But then there's that little something that Traz's mother says : as long as the sword is close enough to the aura, it'll absorb it...

Second of all: I'm still having second thoughts about blond girl being serena, though your evidence seems to point at it. But consider this too though: None of the people in Rhue's dream estrana have aged... except for midian. So it would be awkward that she aged...

And last but not least: what's the deal with the harbinger and the harbringer..? that part is still rather vague to me. :s

Btw I'm gonna replay the whole game yet again today, cuz it seems i've skipped about 3/4th of it... and I didn't actually notice I'd skipped anything... is that just my fault or is it indeed that easy to miss?

[Fredric]

Wait... why didn't I think of this before. It seems so obvious now. When Rhue and Gaius was chasing after Jeruh, Rhue thought that he was Midian. He was chasing after Jeruh because he wanted revenge for Serena. That's why the headhunter called him Midian, Rhue has been thinking he was Midian until the moment he killed Jeruh.

There are also some interesting poems in the tomb where you find Lexus.

RHUE: There's a poem here entitled,
"The Mimic" written by
Kleunwrade.
One who stole their names,
The child of Janwen's bane.
Darkness, shadow, death.
As long as it has breath.
SACRIFA: "The Mimic" is a legendary
evil that is said to have imitated it's
victims.
SACRIFA: The Mimic killed people and
then would pretend to be them.
For a time the Mimic was the most
feared being across the entire Way.

That sounds pretty much like what has happened to Rhue, Rhue could even be the Mimic.

[Trihan]

So you reckon that Rhue had his Shadow Sword BEFORE he killed Jeruh, and he killed Midian as the Mimic before he chased Jeruh, thus absorbing Midian's aura and believing himself to be Midian, thus chasing Jeruh for revenge? This makes sense, as when Midian gets to Jeruh in the Phantom's Blade he says that he no longer desires revenge. If Midian's aura resides within Rhue, it would have been appeased when Rhue originally killed Jeruh, although the Midian of The City wouldn't know this. Then when he absorbed Jeruh's aura, he would have been extremely mixed up due to Jeruh having created a new identity for himself, which Rhue assimilated and caused him to think he was Rhue. Perhaps, though, part of the other auras are still present in his mannerisms, which would explain why he's so uncomfortable with mirrors. Whenever he looks in a mirror every aura that makes up who he is is seeing something that isn't them.

Edit: Something else just occurred to me. What if Rhue's sword absorbed the aura from the Arm of Estrana/Phantom's Blade when Estrana "died"? That would explain why there's a replica of it.

[Alundra]

There are also some interesting poems in the tomb where you find Lexus.

Guess I'll have to go there pretty soon ... But one thing strikes me as odd! I really like your theory about rhue being the mimic and that would be the most logical explanaition.

One who stole their names,
The child of Janwen's bane.
Darkness, shadow, death.
As long as it has breath.

This thing came into life after the destruction of the legendary city... There's something very wrong about altair mansion, for it also harbours the jester... WHAT or WHO was living in that mansion? Is Rhue somekind of demon? Purging the Way would be put in a rather different context then.
It also gives the Paraphlyn a whole different meaning if you think about it.
Could traz's dad also be a spawn of the One Below?

SACRIFA: "The Mimic" is a legendary
evil that is said to have imitated it's
victims.

See this is what I hate about episode 6: Either I've been asleep for the past 5 episodes or I haven't digged deep enough, but NONE OF THESE BEINGS MAKE SENSE... nowhere have they been mentionned before. It feels awfully rushed though.
Still, thanks for pointing this one out, I skipped it obviously.

But I've been busy looking up things too!
Here they are, I've even managed to answer some of my own questions.
But other things are even bigger questions than before, so hold on thight.

weird codes and hints:
TF MT 13 39 (to be found in the wine cellar - crack in the wall)
this same code is also in the crack in the main hall!
in the main hall however the event is called L
The second one is to be found thanks to a hint Lun left on a bird on "the beginning" map.

3 6 4 _11 8 6 16 1 7 (the man on map M 2 0 is called this way... I've tried to apply the according letters of the alphabet but it makes no sense... Guessing it's that telephone thingy again...)

One of the papers in the phantom stairwell reads:
\..\..\..\.
IDEAL RIFF
FACIAL IRON
I PLOT MY BASH
(probably there's gotta be something here you can find by switching the order of the words or lettters... either that or I'm just way into deep.)

general remarks:

*WHY DID JOPAGA CHANGE INTO A WERECAT?

*Five birds fly nimbly by -
stones throw away from the river of life?
Or.. five birds being: kloe, lexus, scatha, cetsa and lyrra...(then again theres sorya)

*Why is the pendant floating by again??? just poetic justice or irony from Lun?

*Take a look at waye2npcposes4:
(this can partly assure us that Lun stuck to the story he originally intended to make and did not even change those characters seeing as they come from episode 2...)
On this charsheet you can already see the 2 ppl that where there when jeruh took the sword before going bezerk and killing serena and all of his other friends.
One of the two is seemingly a bounty hunter (the ninja type), even looks like the one from shadow fight 4. I'm still looking who that other man could be with the sword stuck in his back. However, I'm pretty sure that the 'bounty hunter' that was making 'weird noises' is the same as the one in the shadow battle plunge:

Shadow fight 1: strata
shadow fight 2: schatha
shadow fight 3: cetsa
shadow fight 4: a bounty hunter
Question I have however is : that guy sitting next to the corpse from which jeruh janks the sword, is making the same weird shit noises as the guy who wanted to kill Kloe in the grounds, whom we now know to be traz's father... Is there a connection?

*Midian is NOT the shadowman we fight in the pits: his character does not fit (I've made a picture of this but I still have to upload it...), however the sparks flying around the phanthom slasher are the same as in the pitbattle... it was definately an aura from the sword (yeah i know we knew that but just confirming things ^_^).

*Why is sacrificia dressed different... greenish blue instead of red yellow and green? None of the others is sporting other costumes...

*Why is there a Strata character that has his hand cut off and bleeding heavily? Was there supposed to be more than just the final battle on disk 5?

*The "Lexus ending" on which Rhue meets her on 'the giant beenstalk in the sky that leads to a white portal way up in the air" is already 'somehow' to be seen in Picture #7 in childs knee.

*Path of the pits2: there's a secret passage leading nowhere, at least not in my version. You can see it in the editor.

Questions answered, more questions asked:

Answer to how many episodes? Or stupid question from me?

Three of four and four in one
Five's too many and one is none
One, then Three, Six and Eight
Ten's the end of this cascade.
(This is one weird riddle I stumbled upon when scanning trough the game for hidden messages in the editor. I'm sure there's some among you that'll figure this one out... Might be stupid of me to add this.)

The rolling mists exist!

MAN:\s[3] I saw the mists.
MAN:\s[3] Right before they crash
down they get real red like blood.
MAN:\s[3] They reach for the sky,\.\.
but they can't escape.
MAN:\s[3] Have you ever seen
the ocean?
MAN: \s[3]Every river flows into
the ocean.\.\. They bring sediment
from far away lands and the riptides
carry it out to sea.
MAN:\s[3] Everyday the ocean's waves
beat against the shore,\.\. eroding the
land.\| And everyday the rivers carry
off more sediment.
MAN: \s[3]The rivers widen and
the shorelines diminish.\|
Maybe everything will one
day be engulfed by the waters\..\..\..\.
MAN:\s[3] Maybe that is the will
of the Purpose.

It seems that you can see the rolling mists through the 'windows'. The man you're talking too doesn't like to watch it anymore. (is it just me or does he look extremely like Exmus? WayE6_others: that sad man)

MAN:\s[3] I used to look and
what I saw made me very
happy.
MAN:\s[3] But the longer I looked
the more my happiness faded.
MAN:\s[3] As time went on,\.\. looking
made me sadder and sadder.
MAN:\s[3] I began to wish more
and more that I had never looked
at all.
MAN:\s[3] So one day I turned
away.
MAN:\s[3] My stomach clenched
up and my mouth went dry.\.\.
All of the water went to my eyes.
MAN:\s[3] I let the tears fall onto
the ground.\.\. It was like one of
those rivers,\.\. slowly carrying
away bits and pieces of me.
MAN:\s[2] Sometimes,\. when my
eyes were full,\. I saw visions\..\..\..\.
MAN:\s[3] I felt very sick for
a long time.

Does this mean the rolling mists exist? Does that mean the purpose exists too, instead of being just a tool used by tetzel? Does this mean that's why people talk about 'stretches' of land... only parts of land in a huge ocean?

In the same room as that sad man there's another character asleep in a bed. Who's that weird blonde boy that's having a nice dream... Is it somekind of windfish like entity that dreams the whole way?
Has he anything to do with this?
When rhue looks long enough trough the windows you get this :

" Wait a second\..\..\..\. I do see
something\..\..\..\.\.
Just some little kid\..\..\..\. smiling?"

Is he talking about Jeruh?

More on the history of the rolling mists:

MAN: But as the Lord Below was
driven back he conjured up a great
power from the multitudes under his
sway.
MAN: In that desperate hour
he unleashed a shockwave that
decimated the auras of all living things
for miles and miles around.
\s[2]The Illuminati vanished.\|
Janwen burned.

The rolling mists might have been caused by this apocalyptic event...

The shadow

\s[8]Oh, I see.\.\. No,\.\. you
didn't kill me.\.\. You can't.
\s[8]That is to say,\.\. I amount
to nothing more than a shadow
in this existence.

in my opinion he's either gauis, tetzel, traz's father... or in some twisted way: dirk or the purpose itself...

\s[8]You mean to say that it
transcends natural form?

(what's this supposed to mean?)

Shadow:You are searching for someone,\.\.
are you not?

Rhue:What do you know about it?

Shadow:There is only one person in this
entire city that you ever really
knew.\s[8]But\..\..\..\.\.\. even they are fake.
\s[5]Then again,\.\. I suppose it depends
on who you are.\|\. There is more
than one answer to that question.

Rhue:And just what do you mean by "fake"?

Shadow: Shadows.\.\. They are like shadows.\.\.
If you could follow the shadows you
could find them,\.\. but you cannot.

I wonder who could be the only real person...
Some of you have claimed the girl rhue meets in dream estrana during this episode is Serena right? Well guess again. I've made a picture of it and it's quite obvious that the blackend sprite of chasta is actually the girl rhue speaks to. So, rhue met chasta during episode 6... not serena.
The oldest sister of slade was called Chasta... scatha... you do the rearangement of the name... Its obvious she survived.
I still wonder what she's doing there if her alter ego scatha is still running around alive and kicking.
(sidenote:Somebody said that serena couldn't possibly be the youngest sister of slade, because that would tie the characters too much together... think about it, they've both got blonde hair then again slade's got green )

The black Shoals:

The painting I'm giving you is of
a place called the Black Shoals.
A very important event took
place there\..\..\..\.

There's a map called that way too:
this is the place after 'the walk' where all male chars come together... Slade says here he had to kill 'her' out of guilt. Because he felt for her... Is he talking about his mom, his sister or cetsa?
Who is the woman trazuin's talking about? He obviously killed some girl... who? She brought him closer to his mom...? The woman Gauis is talking about is most probably Kloe. He can't be with her because his life is too dangerous and he doesn't want her to be left alone with a baby if something is to happen to him.

I think the black shoals had more of a meaning to them in the end and I went digging on the internet again. Considering most of the other board users see this as spam (Impossible for one) feel free to look over this, but it's quite interesting to say the least.

Black Shoals Stock Market Planetarium is an animated night sky that is also a live representation of the world’s stock markets, with each star representing a traded company. Fed by massive streams of live financial information, the stars glimmer and pulse, immediately flickering brighter whenever their stock is traded anywhere in the world. The stars slowly move across the sky, clustering together or drifting apart in response to the shifting affinities of their respective companies, growing or shrinking as the company’s fortunes change. Digital creatures, a form of artificial life, inhabit this world, feeding on the light released by the stars, breeding, dying and slowly evolving – while trying to learn to live in this strange artificial ecology into which they’ve been born.

There's a lot more of interesting things to read at this page http://www.blackshoals.net/project.html

The painting pieces in the hearts
The phantom shows rhue a painting in which the middle part is torn out.Rhue doesn't like the painting and think it's stupid that the phantom ripped out that part, even if that's whats so great about it, according to the phantom.
But then a very interesting quote appears:

Code: Select all

"What did you do with the part you ripped out?"
"\s[7]I put it inside a person's heart.
His own heart, but also another's."

The picture on the painting reminds me of a town...
Anybody an idea of what this could mean?

Well, that's all for now, but just like all of you I'm still looking for many answers, while digging out the bugs. Later

[EmperorJeramyu]

Slade says here he had to kill 'her' out of guilt. Because he felt for her... Is he talking about his mom, his sister or cetsa?

Probably Cetsa. I mean, he didn't kill Scatha, or his mother as far as I know.

[Alundra]

I think so too, but he did throw his sister in the pits... maybe he thinks she's dead...?
Can somebody explain to me who or what in fact The Pontifex Tetzel is?

[EmperorJeramyu]

No, because they met up on the cliff that Slade jumped from, and I'm pretty sure he knew it was her.

[Alundra]

Listen up, I've found probably more evidence to who is whom in the way:
It might be surprising...

(thorough knowledge of the episode is needed to be able to follow my jumping around with quotes though)
I'll try to answer the questions:
who is Trazuin really?
Who is the one Below?
WHo has what kind of sword?
What's the perfect blade?
What is the mimic?
LUN might be up to something new soon!


The truth about who has what kinda sword.

MAN: Ah,\.\. I know what it is you
seek.\.\. The swords of justice...\.\.
the Illuminati.
MAN: They are not here.\.\. Indeed,\.\.
one might suggest that they exist
no longer.

Thats a pack of jackrat dumpings if you ask me!

MAN: Actually they do exist,\.\. but they
are not what they once were.

That's more like it! Even our dear blue boy "rhue" has an aura called: Illumniati. That's what's probably left of them: aura's...
But there's more to it... There is an actual Illuminati... the following text gives the proof you will surely ask!

MAN: It was during the years that Janwen
became a sprawling city that most note the
disappearance of the Illuminati from
history. During this time the people of the
land slipped under the sway of the Lord
Below.\.\. It was not long before he
came to reside beneath Janwen.
The people of Janewn adored
and worshipped the Lord Below.
In places such as this (summoning pits) they came to
meet with his lessers and make deals.
The influence of the Lord
Below grew in the land.\.\.
Innocent blood flowed.
The Illuminati slept.\|
But then\..\..\..
An impetus suddenly began rolling
through the outlying lands.(what is an impetus?)
The Illuminati were discovered and
taken up once again.\.\
All,\.\. but one.
They came to Janwen.
And when they reached the city
they descended into the Pits to find
the Lord Below through the very
passages you yourself have come.
There in the firey depths of the
Reaches they faced off against the Evil
One.Surely they fought most gallantly
and victory must have seemed certain.\.\.
They scarred the Evil One badly that
day.But as the Lord Below was
driven back he conjured up a great
power from the multitudes under his
sway.In that desperate hour
he unleashed a shockwave that
decimated the auras of all living things
for miles and miles around.
The Illuminati vanished.\|
Janwen burned. (enter my start of the rolling mists theory, which nobody commented on I might add )

All but one they were destroyed... Who then has the actual only one that's left? My guess? Trazuin! Why?
I'll elaborate on this, by giving the proof straight from the game itself.


Who is the son of the One Below?

Scar upon the father's brow
Left by son, the disavowed
The shadowed depths below forsaken
Enter now our world, thy haven.
Fading into the night,
The scourge of fear, the blight.
Upon this land beneath the sky.
Echoes of the past decry.

Legend of the fallen world,
Betrayed for lust, a plan unfurled.
First to right a single wrong,
Then revenge, The Guided strong.

The land beneath the sky
Echoes of the past decried
A lost love carried on
Words to a lonely song
Everyone must bleed
Truth hides nothing.

These are the three poems you find in the tomb where you enlist Lexus into your party. the second part of the first poem you'll only find if you reread the text a second time.
If put in this particulary order, the start to make a lot of sense...

Venge was supposedly a son of the Lord Below that came to the Middle Way in order to avenge the scarring of his father. At least this is what Sacrificia tells rhue. Rhue himself says the poem suggest differently. The Evil One got scarred by his dissavowed his own son... He cast him out. Isn't this exactly what happens to Trazuin and Kalmar? Venge can either come from revenge or vengeance... that much is obvious. The thing I wanna know now (because that's a part of my theory heh) is what Trazuin's real name was... something like Aladar? or was it? I just wanna see the connection between the name of the father and his son.(Lun has a thing with names you all know that after episode 6) I think we can safely assume that both Trazuin and Kalmar have both been around for a whole while... If kalmar is the evil one, it would be logically that trazuin his son is the one that scarred him. And trazuin returned to finish the job in episode 5...
THat brings us to another idea of mine: why would trazuin thus be looking for a shadow sword? Well just to destroy it... He might be able to it with his own illuminati...Why do I keep saying that? I've got no proof to state that he's got one? I HAVE: Didn't they say that the illuminati were used against the dark one and that only one remained and that the evil one was scarred by that blade and his own son? Okay, repeating myself, but that's just for the noobs who tend to ask questions about things that have been said a few moments ago (which they already forgotten). (yeah i'm frustrated but these things do happen on the boards right?)

Another proof that trazuin might be different then other people is this: How on earth could he posess the powers he has. None other than the paraplyn could have those, and we do know that he IS NOT the paraplyn!
Given the fact that he might be the devil's son might give his such strenght. More proof? Yeah okay... What if trazuin shifted to his very true being while being down in the pits? That might explain the shadow man, and why Rhue was able to defeat it with such ease... (read on to know what i mean)

What is the perfect blade?
My guess is that the one below was working on a perfect blade, a mix between both light and darkness... So he would rule undisputed.
He might have considered his son worthy of that, but instead, after being betrayed by his own offspring, he found another one bearer. Instead of gaius, which most board members think is a possible theory, it is most likely rhue... I've got proof for this too!
When Kalmar and Rhue met for the first time, he said: Abuta. Did Kalmar recognises his own handy work there?
That's the name of Rhue's sword, and if you noticed, the sword can harbour both light as dark aura's... Most easy hint ever?!
That would also answer why rhue had his crazy reaction around the sword in the mine underneath foreman ballar's house. His sword has really weird reactions on certain other swords: he cannot harm Gaius's sword, but neither could he do with the one I've just mentionned. He is forced to attack but cannot do anything because it's an anomaly...
It might also reveal why Rhue goes into massacering everybody (because his sword makes him do it so he can pass through and face kalmar?)
Maybe the shooting light bolts from his sword while fighting the shadow man (possibly trazuin) was possible because trazuin was weak in his own domain... He hadn't put a protective aura around or something...?

The guided aren't so bad afterall
Somehow I feel that the guided aren't so bad afterall...
Okay, they do have their own means of betraying people and guiding them to their own purposes... But still. They do not want people to settle.
They remember the history of Janwen. Maybe if somebody settles down, he might repeat the same senseless mistake of contacting the Lord Below.
That's why there are wanderers. The initial people who started the wandering after they were homeless, and well.. you know what happend then. Some started to settle down.

"First to right a single wrong,
Then revenge, The Guided strong."

This is pretty unclear to me. Maybe it were the guided who started the whole affair with the Lord Below in the first place. They did sent for Kava and Kura to destory that 'witch' Lumia... Kava got ensnared by Lumia, just like the ppl of Janwen did. Kura fullfilled his orders, maybe along with the oucasted son of the Lord Below. My theory? Okay here goes. The son of the one below is not too pleased with his father. He makes a pact with Kura and they trade blades. That might be why 'Rhue' has abuta, and why trazuin has the illuminati. This will lead to another theory(about rhue being Kura and even the mimic) in a moment. Just lemme round this up. The part of 'then revenge, the guided strong' might be pointed out easily.
The guided might have been the only ones that knew about what truly transpired in Janwen. They were not too pleased to see that somebody was rebuilding the city of Estrana on top of the ruins.
(end of part 1 seeing as my computer might crash any moment now... I'll get back on part 2 asap tonite)

[Alundra]

They start to tunnel underneath the town of estrana, but they try to scare people away from their actions? How do they do that? they ask sacrificia to spread the rumor of the phantom slasher... The phantom slasher has been seen before and killed before... WHat if I'm right and the shadow form that rhue fought in the pits is the true appearance of a demon or a son of a demon? that might go to show that people can easily mistake that being for the current phantom slasher right?!
They burrow deeper and deeper to face the evil one and finally destroy him, but what they do not know is that he's not down there anymore... (if my theory about kalmar is correct though)

SACRIFA: You see,\.\. technically I
was a part of the revolt.
Loyalist forces were responsible
for the violence in Estrana and the death\..\..\..\.\.
no,\.\. the MURDER\.\. of my wife!
Because I believe in truth.\|
Thus,\.\. I could not follow Tetzel.\.\.
The truth is not in him.\.\. I doubt it ever
was. I thought that The Purpose had
answered my call when I found out that the
Pontifex Maximus Tetzel wanted me to take
charge of The Guided effort to offically secure
Estrana. I was told to do so in order
to use it as a base of operations for
future Guided operations. Tetzel assured me it
was the will of the Purpose and I
had his blessing.
Maintaining control of the
city was a difficult undertaking as the
Vigilance Council was trying to move in
and seize the city for themselves. I quickly realized that if I
succeeded in occupying the city,\.\. I
would have time to search for a cure
for Lilah.I made concessions
to Zedicus in order to resolve the situation
and free myself to pursue a cure. (Thus Guided and Vigilante came to rule the city together)
Tetzel was not very pleased with
me,\.\. but he was too busy with another project
to do anything beyond scolding me through
messengers. As things settled down in the city
I began to work to find a cure for Lilah.\|
A year passed and nothing I tried cured her.\|
I pleaded with the Purpose for
help,\.\. but no answer came.
My heart was so grieved
that I decided to seek help from another.\|\.
The Lord of the Pits.
I tried to summon him,\.\. but
I only succeeded in drawing up one of his
lessers.The lesser told me to dig a
tunnel deep down into the Pits.\.\.\. The Lord
Below would only bargain with me face to
face in his own domain. And so I began to tunnel down
into the Pits below Estrana in secret.\.\.\. It
wasn't very long before we found something
very strange.A discovery that would
eventually change everything for me. This underground city of course.All evidence suggested the
Guided had delved into the Pits prior to
my arrival.At about the same time I was
ordered by Tetzel to begin circulating
propoganda about a silent murderer called
the Phantom Slasher.There were many existing stories
and I simply exaggerated them further.\.\.
Tetzel never gave me any
explanation for this order,\.\. but it was
obvious to me that he was trying to delay
the masses for some reason.I did as ordered and continued
digging into the Pits,\.\. hoping to save my
poor Lilah.But somehow,\.\. someone found out
about Lilah's disease and her connection to me.
After they slaughtered her I
summoned horrible beasts from the Pits
which ended up ripping Estrana to shreds. Yes,\.\. and then I left the city
to join the rebel Guided against Tetzel at
the End of the Way.

It seems somehow that Gauis and Sacrificia repeat the whole tragedy of
Kava and Kura on their own terms... Sacrificia (Kava) loves lilah (lumia) - I hope most of you see the somehow connection in the names- and they are thwarted in their love by Gauis. Hence the poem meets it sad ending.

Legend of the fallen world, (yet again the way is plunged into darkness by destruction of Estrana/Janwen)
Betrayed for lust, a plan unfurled. (Gauis plan is thwarted by the lust/love of sacrificia for his wife)
First to right a single wrong, (destroy the evil one)
Then revenge, The Guided strong. (revenge on sacrificia?)

The land beneath the sky (the middle way)
Echoes of the past decried (decried instead of decry in the meaning of it happend in the past)
A lost love carried on (kura lumia - sacri and lilah)
Words to a lonely song (gauis lonely song?)
Everyone must bleed (obvious)
Truth hides nothing(obvious)

and so the spiral of the way is yet again complete.

Who or what is Gaius?

WOMAN: I know a man who's been
in possession of a Shadow Sword for
quite some time. I would guess that it has
been in his possession for the last
few hundred years.
Yes,\.\. it sounds impossible doesn't
it?\.\.\. But that's the first thing you should know
about Shadow Swords.\.\.\. Those who possess
them do not age physically. (Yeah I know that here we all think about Kalmar... )Not a day.\.\. They stay as they
are while they continue to possess the
Shadow Sword.
Not quite (immortal).\.\. They can still be
be killed\..\..\..\. but not easily. (IT TAKES ANOTHER KIND OF SWORD?!)
Shadow Swords can absorb
auras like nothing else on the Way.
Full,\.\. powerful auras that give
the weilder of the sword incredible
abilities. By killing wanderers.\| Wanderers
are the most abundant and easily accessed
source of auras. Actually,\.\. it doesn't even have
to be used to kill.\.\. It merely has to be near
as death takes hold. But I've heard that
Shadow Swords often "prefer" certain victims
to others\..\..\..\.\. Sometimes they like to be
used to kill,\.\. but other times they don't.
Shadow Swords strongly bind
themselves to the natural,\.\. or as some say,\.\.
the original aura,\.\. of the one who possesses
them. The bonds become stronger
and more intertwined the longer they
remain. However,\.\. as the sword absorbs
other auras,\.\. it binds itself to them as well.
These connections are very weak
compared to the connections made with the
original aura,\.\. but as more and more of them
are made,\.\. the original/dominant aura's power begins to erode.After a certain limit the original
aura's bonds to its soul and body are suddenly
snapped and the other auras rush into the
opening. The soul and body desperately begin
to form new connections with the
chaotic mass of invading auras which ends
up driving the weilder into a state of multiple personality,\.\. suicidal madness. It's only a matter of time after this
occurs that the weilder then kills themself,\.\.
dispersing the auras and destorying
the connections made to them by the Shadow Sword.
(Okay I'm going to break my own arguments here, but IF Trazuin would be carrying a shadow sword, it would be why he commits suicide at the end of the game...)he man I mentioned
knew about it long before it ever had a chance
to happen to him. He spent decades researching
and examining the problem trying to find
some solution.\|\| To a degree he even
succeeded in doing so...

My guess is she talking about Tetzel and Jopanga here. But here we go with more weird things: according to me Gauis is Tetzel. That might be what Jopanga was really researching: how to help gauis maintain his true identity. Gauis is something else than most wanderers he said so himself.
It might even be that Gaius true meaning of going to Lide was to secure that the blade was still underneath the mansion of foreman Ballar. He might have left it there himself. Wait a minute? who's sword is it then that we see underneath that house??? JERUH'S!
Errr what?? It's pretty easy to understand if you think about it.

Gauis and Trazuin were both looking for Jeruh to claim his sword.
That's why Traz' is sitting there when rhue bumps into him. If you think about the distance... They were not too far away from where the whole thing started. Only a few daywalks. Gauis got to Jeruh first.

That's why all the guided listen to him (such as velicia). Why did he kill or at least give the order to kill Sacrificia's work? He probably suspected him to have certain connections to the Lord of the Pits and by killing his wife, Gaius might have hoped to bring sacrificia back to his senses and scare him to death in the same process...
Tetsel being gauis might also be why gauis is travelling towards the end of the way... and taking Rhue along with him. That's why Gauis might have gotten up so early. That's why Tetsel has so much knowledge about the way and even possibly books that contain how much people there are about - living or dead.

Sidenote: I'm going to be a bit bold with this but has anybody played Baldurs gate. I only heard this story by a friend of mine, but according to him it's about a demon that has a lot of offspring. They all fight until one is left and that one has to claim the throne. So in the end you have to fight your own brother or sister or whatever the story goes.
The point I'm trying to make here is... WHat if the Lord Below had two sons...? Gaius and Trazuin?

Rhue is the mimic!
Thanks to another board member for bringing the tomb to my attention and more specifically the mimic I've been digging up whatever I could:

WOMAN(of which some think it's trazuin's mother): Of course you aren't him\..\..\..
it doesn't matter what your face
looks like. You are strange...Always changing\..\..\..\.\.
You're not going to hurt me?

(HINT TOWARDS THE MIMIC? I mean... it doesn't matter what your face looks like NOW BECAUSE YOU'RE ALWAYS CHANGING is pretty obvious to me?!) She says this to Rhue... So... Is Rhue the mimic?

Water.\.\. It is shapeless and
eternal.\.\. It cannot be destroyed.\.\.
When it is scorched it turns
into steam and flees into the sky.
When it is touched with extreme
cold it forms a solid crystal armor that
is slippery to grasp.
It changes it's very nature in
order to survive.
No sword can harm it.\.\. No force
can wound it.
Water absorbs all,\.\. even the
illest of poisons.\.\. Yet it suffers not.\.\.
It lives on despite those who invade it.

If you ask me Kavax gave the complete description of both The perfect blade and the Phanthom slasher here... ?? But also basically of a mimic. It changes it's very nature in order to survive.

Fading into the night,
The scourge of fear, the blight.

The Phantom slasher and the Mimic are one. At least to me they are.
The problem with all of this is how to fit it together. If you know that besides being all that: PS and Mimic... we know that Rhue is Kura...

KAVAX: Your victory was hollow.\.\.
I understand your mind,\.\. and now
I hate you no longer Kura. (Isn't this exactly what Midian says to Jeruh?)
RHUE:The name is Rhue.\.\. I just played the
part of Kura in Alan's show.\.\. Why
don't you try to keep reality and make
believe separated.
KAVAX: It is right for you to be
confused so.\.\. I will diminish from
such talk,\.\. but I will offer you the
final test.

True story of Kava and Kura:The first massacre

Seven generations ago there (how many years is that?)
lived two men.\|\.\. Strangely
similiar and yet disimiliar at
the same time.\|\|\^(Gauis and Trazuin)Both were valiant warriors and
fought with the strength of ten
men.\|\| ^(Gauis and Trazuin)And both were as swift^(Gauis and Rhue)
as the rushing winds of Alendor.\|\|\^
Together they were nearly unstoppable.\|
And thus it was that these two men joined
one another as blood brothers,\.\. and (LYN MOST DEFINIATELY BLOODOATH ...)became sell-swords for hire.\|\|\|\^(err ... LYN? Yeah I guess!)
They quickly made a name for themselves (the two escaped lyn?)
as the very best,\.\. going on brilliant
adventures and conquering a myriad
of foes.\|\|\^(Trazuin goes matrix episode 5...)
Legendhood floated at their fingertips.\|
Not once had they ever failed any
task they took up.\|\.\.\^
And then one summer they were hired
by The Guided to go out and capture a
heretic,\.\.\. a priestess of the Solemn Woods.\|\|\|\^
Such a small task it seemed,\.\. but larger
things loomed on the horizon.\|\| A small
shadow was slowly taking shape.\|\|\^(the phantom slasher came into life)They then enter a forest and meet up with Luma. She summons a lesser to fight off her assilants but she fails...
After defeating the Great Beast (Lesser ?)
Kava and Kura took the priestess Luma
captive.Kava was kind to her,\.\. but Kura
bore her no good will.Kava pleaded with Kura to change
his mind,\.\. and release Luma,\.\.
but Kura could not be swayed.Kura would not break his contract,\.\.
or his word to The Guided.\.\. (somehow this seems a bit like gauis)
He was determined to fufill what he
felt were his obligations.Were it not for their brotherhood
etched in blood,\.\. Kava would have done more to try to help
Luma.But he was bound.\.\. He could not betray his brother in arms.\.\.
And so he bided his time and waited for an opportunity.And so it was that one night Kava allowed himself to accidentally give Luma the chance she needed to escape.With a poorly tied knot around her wrists,\.\. Kava declared his great sympathy for her plight ever more than before.And so she freed herself and snuck off into the woods late that night.But fate was against her, or something darker.\.\. For Kura woke suddenly
from his sleep and soon gave chase,\.\. following her trail...
Kura met up with Luma and brought her back to the guided.

ALAN: <Rhue,\.\. you weren't supposed
to take out the Guided...>

This is how the scene ended when Rhue played it.

SACRIFA: The show we were in
didn't go into what became of Kura.\.\.\.
That's to be expected though.
Most people focus on Kava
and Luma.\.\. Did you know the entire
Guided camp was massacred the night
after Kava and Luma met their end?
Most people believe it was
Kava come back from the dead,\.\. to
avenge himself and Luma.
It's also said that a forest
grew up out of the ground where (LANDORIN?)
the massacre occurred.

We can be sure that the forestmaze in episode 6 is that very same forest in which Lumia is burried. It is also the same forrest maze as we faced in episode 5, in which the PS killed our poor Alan. I'm still wondering what the hell that idiot was doing there... Considering that a stretch is quite big I'm thinking that the forrest is also part of the landorin stretch. It also looks partly like where serena and lil rhue were in that flashback... So everything is repeating itself...Massacre in which all guided died... it all seems to make sense doesnt it? Janwen and this massacre... Landorin and Estrana? Twice the summoning of the one below...

As pointed out before, Midian says to Jeruh that he hates him no longer. He knows he was posessed by the sword.
Same goes on between Kavax and Rhue...
If Rhue is truly Kura then he probably became the Mimic because he became cursed by Lumia... Fated to dwell between the beyond and the real world...

What's more of a mystery to me is why Rhue recalls the point where he faces Gauis. He knows that's not the spot where serena died. It looks an awful lot like that spot where Jeruh found that dead body and the catatonic dude... I don't know what you people think about that. Could it have to do anything with that?
It's all becoming a bit of a blur as its already passed midnight right now... almost one o'clock at night...
I hope at least that I've inspired people to talk about what happend with my rant... Maybe some of you can fill in the gaps...

And if we don't make it on our own... then take this as a last token:

I wanted something more spectacular, but there's only so much you can do.
More, more, more.... but I have to grow up. Have to apply my time and skills elsewhere. Luke

"the courtroom scene :This event was completed on
December 6, 2002. Lun."

We can rest assured, Lun knew what he was doing, considering he was already at the end of the game in 2002. And he's willing to share it with us...

From: lun <lun@crestfallen.us>
Subject: Re: Episode 6 form completed.
Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 06:46:18
Thanks for the form! For now, I won't be answering any questions
about the plot, but that will come in time. =)
Lun

So don't despair... Answers will come and maybe not as halfassed as mine.
This was Alundra for radio Turnway, back to the studios!
Have a good night!